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Well generally, if I don't know the tune and given time, I obviously listen to the melody, then map it out as a chord melody. That's when I realize if I'm going to have at it or not. When I see something like Dbo7/Db6/Dbmaj7 (like in this tune), I need to see what's going on. I didn't yet, hence no post. I have a tune that contains Dbmaj7/F#ma7/Cm7, which was obviously logical to me at the time, but may not immediately be so to another musician.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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04-01-2021 04:59 PM
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Ready to play it at an actual jam session: As soon as it's called. If I don't know it, I do my best with iReal changes, or by ear. I can't sight read melodies, but I can comp and solo on changes from a chart. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Ready to play if I'm calling it at a jam or on my own gig: As soon as I can play the head and changes from memory and I feel like decent melodic ideas come to me. The hardest part for me is getting the melody down (especially really intricate or rhythmically tricky stuff like bebop heads), but a couple of hours is usually sufficient for GASB type tunes, sometimes less. A lot less if I'm already familiar with the tune, but just haven't really played it. My method is generally to bounce back and forth between recordings and my Real Book (or sometimes download a chart), and iReal to figure out a song. I usually get most of it by ear and fill in the gaps with charts/iReal. It tends to be a mish mosh of just the melody, just the chords, and some degree of harmonization of the melody until I've got it. I'll often start trying to blow over iReal or a backing track or along with a recording before I've fully memorized everything. I'll also practice just comping
There's a further level of "ready" where I really feel free with the tune, can take liberties with the head, harmonize someone else playing the head, solo and comp more fluently. This takes a lot longer, but I don't wait to get to that point before playing it with other people.
On these threads: there are a couple where I didn't try to play the head and just jumped in to blow over the changes after a few quick passes. Others were more in line with my general practice, but I'm consciously trying not being too labored about it.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 04-01-2021 at 05:49 PM.
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Well done, you acquitted yourself well on an unfamiliar tune! Good tone too. Originally Posted by John A.
Just seen on another post: "My process for learning tunes is usually charged by my passion for the tune". Nice (+ spare time)
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Good discussion. The hard truths for me, personally:
If this were an actual in-person jam session, I’d be staring at the chart, making a fool of myself to various degrees depending on the tempo and how frequently the harmony changes. I am unable to instantly sight read melodies, but I think I could make a somewhat passable stab at comping cold using shell voicings, again depending on the tempo and complexity. Also, I could half-ass a solo by staring at the chart and playing a bit by ear.
So the glass-is-half-empty part of me says this sucks, I need way more time with these tunes than I can afford. I am just now getting to the point where I can reliably improvise through Dolphin Dance and feel like I haven’t lost my place in the form. But damn...I’ve learned a ton.
The glass-is-half-full side of me recognizes that if you want to play jazz, you have to play jazz, not fritter away the time doing nothing but exercises. I’m sure there’s some benefit in learning a song in a week every week, even if it’s not perfect. Over time, one could get pretty good at picking up a tune every week, not to mention the common chord patterns and whats-not that one will start to recognize more readily.
So I think I’m going to live by the seat of my pants tonight and wing a take on UMMG as if I were in the embarrassing position of having to wing it in person. I haven’t had a chance to fully digest the tune, and it would likely take me another week to get fully comfortable with the melody and changes.
Not sure if this is a threat or a promise, but stay tuned till later on this evening....
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That’s what I felt was the spirit of the thread. YMMV of course. Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
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Generally my approach is to learn it by ear from whatever appropriate recorded versions, compare my own notes to various published charts and practice it for the amount of time necessary for me to know the changes and melody off by heart and so I can play the song and improvise through it fluently in all settings ranging from full rhythm section to solo. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
For a typical AABA standard this doesn’t take that long these days, but to get the details in a tune like Nica’s Dream, can be a long one.
I don’t feel this approach has served me very well here. People are very quick off the mark with versions and everyone loses interest after a couple of days
Perhaps it should be a ‘have a go from the chart’ thread? And then the then gets canned after a few days and we all move on.Last edited by christianm77; 04-01-2021 at 07:15 PM.
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Try an A triad going into the Dbmaj7. It’s what a lot of the pros do and it sounds really good for this song Originally Posted by Peter C
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What I actually do to solo on one of our jimmy jam jams, whether it sounds like it or not each take is:
1. Make a playlist. Spend money buying whole albums because I want the whole damn album. This... is a costly habit.
2. Listen to the playlist. Hum along.
3. Go to the piano and piece together the melody.
4. Get a chart--not the best practice, but I read iReal charts on jams for tunes I don't know--to get the comping down. You can be an ass when you take a solo, but don't be an ass when you comp behind someone else. Sometimes I'm an ass either way.
5. Go to the piano and SING. LA LA LA. Sing the melody. Play the root movement. Sing the root movement and play the melody.
6. Guitar time! Play the tune. Focus on hearing the changes in my head. Play just with those MrSunnyBass youtube play-a-longs. I like his style. I think the secret to his grooves lie in those slick shades of his
7. Go to the piano. Experiment with linear ideas. Pretend I am Keith Jarrett, even though he is in a whole other galaxy with his playing.
8. Go to the guitar. Take lines from the piano and play them on the piano.
9. Listen to the playlist some more.
10. Record the tune. Don't think, just listen! At least that is what I tell myself. Thinking when I improvise makes it all go tits up. I don't I've ever used that expression before. Always time to learn something new
11. Think of a fun title for the Mp3. A bit of a cheeky bastard that I might be.
12. Post it on this thread.
13. Type some self defeating bull shite because... isn't that what we all do
14. Listen to your submissions.
15. Feel subpar
Rinse and repeat
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Late to the discussion, sorry, busy week...im on Spring Break, which is no break at all, rather, it's playing an intense week long game of catch up.
So I put up this week's thread, John A's pick, and its a great one. But never feel like a thread is closed...if you like a tune, keep working on it.
The spirit here was always intended to be that of a jam...or as close as you can get virtually. Get a chart and take a solo. Never heard the tune? Tough it out. Chord melody? Not a chance. That's what you do of you end up liking the tune and you stick with it...and if you don't like the tune, either don't play it, or try it anyway and Watch What Happens (hey, we should do that one)
But there's no pressure to play. But also stop thinking you're going to get it perfect in one week. Nobody is. But I can definitely tell you this--the way to actually get better in this music is to take chances and fail a bunch. And to challenge yourself to internalize tunes quickly. Like, in a few minutes. And it can be done.
So if we're talking process, here's mine, for learning a new tune quick...now yeah, I picked the first 10 tunes here, so who's saying how long i spent on them-- but i did really try to keep true to this.
My process is this. Listen to the tune and learn to sing the melody. Then write out the changes. Charts are fine, I use my ear if something sounds off, and I do listen to a few versions if possible.
Truth is, if you really don't know a song at a jam, you're hearing the melody once and chords as many times as it takes to get to your solo...so this environment is still a lot safer.
But yeah, settle on some chords. Charts can differ, but I bet the I's and V 's are in the same place.
But WRITE OUT the changes. Really. Makes a huge difference. And block out the form. The changes and form can be in short term memory in a few minutes.
Then PLAY.
Anyway, that's my route. But im nobody special.
Who wants to call Round 13?
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In the spirit of the jam session concept, here is my take. Not entirely cold—I did spend some time on the A section melody earlier in the week—but tonight was the first night I attempted to improvise over the form. I don't think I'll be sticking with tune—it doesn't grab me like Beatrice, Nica's Dream, and Dolphin Dance did—and I am sure Billy Strayhorn wouldn't have it any other way. I tried a new recording technique tonight—Joyo American sound --> Barber Linden EQ --> direct into Quicktime with some overzealous mastering attempts in Logic.
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Cool. In all the jams I've taken part in here, I came up with something that could "pass" (by my own criterion), and even entertain, clams and all. This was mostly on unfamiliar tunes. I'm ok with taking risks, and have done that plenty of times at live jams, but when I don't feel inside the tune in some way, I'm the first to say that I just popped a string, what a pity. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
edit: Maybe I should add that I'm kind of "undercover" in a jazz environment, just absorbing all the wonderful harmony
It has broadened my compositional horizon no end. Have never been interested in getting anyone else's performance of a tune down pat and would always put my own spin on it (if I can).
Last edited by Peter C; 04-02-2021 at 08:25 AM.
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Glad to see you pulled the trigger on this tune WZPGSR!
I had some time to think about that “what is your process” question because I have 2 answers and they depend on the reason and purpose of the song. Initially I said that my passion for a tune dictates how I attack learning it, and this is true but lacks details. The two learning types are: songs I want to learn, and songs I have to learn.
Song type A. Songs I want to learn start with learning the arrangement by playing along to the tape with a chord sheet in front of me.
It doesn’t have to be right, it just has to get me started. I almost always learn melodies for these songs by transcribing. If I can’t figure it out I’ll resort to the real book. I’ll play along to the recording that inspired me then I start creating a chord melody for it. All the tunes I learn that I fall in love with get the full treatment of chord melody and chord solo.
Song type B. Songs I have to learn I read from the real book and play along to iReal until I have it.
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Triple_jazz: Nice job, especially on the front end of the tune.
Wzfbgrwtfsminykfowtftm (do you mind if I call you Wzfbgrwtfsminykfow): The guitar tone sounds excellent. I've been using amp sims in GarabeBand (same plugins as Logic), but I have an American Sound pedal and am tempted to try just that. Good ideas for seeding melodies there. I think if you settle in for a longer solo you'd get some good flow out of that.
Glad to see some of you jumping in despite reservations. You've acquitted yourselves just fine.
John
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How do you pronounce that? Originally Posted by John A.
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Just like it's spelled. Originally Posted by TOMMO
How do you pronounce that?
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
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Thanks. That B section is what I don’t like, just not musical to me. I didn’t know what to play. A section more intuitive. Originally Posted by John A.;[URL="tel:1111096"
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So basically what I am learning from these threads is that people will moan about the changes of any given instrumental jazz standard.
I think that’s the point isn’t it? To widen the skill set a bit and get used to playing new things?
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What I've been learning from these tunes:
1. I pay more attention to detail when I record a video and post it. It reminds me to be more precise in my playing.
2. I've learned a couple of new tunes and finally really learned Dolphin Dance.
3. I've learned something about how others approach a tune, which will probably affect how I do it. My default option is a chart, but probably should be a recording.
4. I'm also reminded of the advantages (and a disadvantage) of being able to read. The disadvantage is that it can reduce reliance on your ear which means you may be developing your eye at the expense of your ear, in an ear-based medium.
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I don't see moaning and learning as incompatible. I see them as complementary. Originally Posted by christianm77
John
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I that has been most of our reactions to this tune. The front-end is full of familiar more-or-less ii-V-I moves; the back-end is less clear harmonically. That is sort of a Strayhorn signature. Even his quite early pieces for Ellington have unexpected impressionist things mixed with much more obvious things, and his tunes can be very hard to decipher (e.g., Lush Life is pretty mind-boggling). If you listen to just the harmony, it's weird. If you listen to just the melody, it's weird. If you listen to the two together, it makes sense. Jobim is often like that, too. Originally Posted by Triple_Jazz
John
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Hah tell me about it. Originally Posted by John A.
I don't see moaning and learning as incompatible. I see them as complementary.
John
it’s all good though! I just find it funny.
maybe next week we do Blue Bossa and everyone moans about it being too obvious...
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In my opinion Strayhorn more than any other composer I know really moved jazz towards colouristic rather than merely functional harmony. Originally Posted by John A.
That said the B is a fairly conventional modulating bridge, albeit with a slightly unusual modulation.
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That's an interesting observation. I might have cited Gershwin and Cole Porter as doing that, but they weren't composing specifically for jazz. Strayhorn was really a remarkable musical figure. Originally Posted by christianm77
John
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The thing about UMMG that seems most unusual to me is what happens right before m7b5 chords.
The first ending features a ii V in Bmajor leading to an Fm7b5. Gb7 to Fm7b5 is unusual and is the only really jarring change in the tune to my ear.
Then, the chord before the bridge is part of a ii V in Gb, ie a Db7 and it goes to Gm7b5, also an unusual change. A little jarring to my ear, but not bad because you expect the bridge to be different.
The chord before the last A section is Ab7. It comes just after a ii V in Gbm, which is an unusual move in itself. Then, the Ab7 leads to Fm7b5. I can't think of another tune that does that, but it sounds smooth to me.
Within the bridge, the chord right before Abm7b5 is Fmaj7, which is unusual, but sounds smooth to me.
Finally, the last chord of the tune is Db6 and it leads back to capo with Fm7b5.
So, summing up, the chord right before Fm7b5 in the A sections is Gb7 or Ab7 or Db6.
In the bridge the chord right before a m7b5 may be a 7th chord a b5 up, or a major chord a b3 down.
It's unusual.
Bug or feature?
Maybe a bit of chat about what makes this tune difficult would be worthwhile. Unusual changes mean your usual vocabulary has to be modified or discarded.
You have to find a way to play through changes that move in unexpected ways while making melody. I found that difficult in this tune. I couldn't find a melody I really liked. As a result, I resorted to my "safety net procedures". Mostly, I played arps (or close) on the chords I couldn't really feel. Not art, but not clams. Notably, I didn't get into this game for "not clams", so I wasn't satisfied, but I couldn't play it any better at the time.
I'm not sure how others find their way through unfamiliar harmonic territory. I've detailed my approach before. I know the notes in the chords, I can recognize tonal centers and I have some scale knowledge (more spotty and generally limited than is advisable). And, I can hear some harmony. So, for example, I could hear bars 5 and 6, which sound like C7 to Dbmaj to me, give or take a b9. I couldn't hear the turnaround at bars 7 and 8 (it sounds like a bad edit to me), so I played a Dbm7 arp and may have moved the B to Bb. I couldn't make it fit with what came before, or after, but at least I didn't play a clam in the clip I posted. Even if that comes out sounding more or less like jazz, it's unsatisfying because it's not a cohesive adaptation to the harmony.
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