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Christian -
I didn't even make it to the end of that Holdsworth thing. Very clever and all that but nothing to do with Nuages as far as I can see. What did he do? Just go doodle-doodle-do over the chords? That's not Nuages. It's not even a pretend Nuages.
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03-20-2021 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by christianm77
John
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
I often make my own tracks anyway.
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Everybody should make their own backing tracks, they'd learn lots.
Last edited by ragman1; 03-21-2021 at 01:23 AM.
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Slight thread hijack.
I have come to consider that a blues approach to jazz improvisation is at least two things. One is the note choice. Blues licks, bluesy sounds and so forth. That's what we usually think about.
But, there's another component. I'll call it structural for want of a better term. It has to do with how you build excitement or drama in a solo. Not that all blues players do it the same way.
To try to illustrate the difference, I'll offer the following comparison.
In a jazz solo, the peaks may come with a rapid fire stream of notes weaving inside and out with respect to harmony. Obviously, not every player does this, but it's reasonably common. The tone or attack of the notes tends not to vary much.
A blues solo is more likely to feature, as a peak, a high sustained note, an intense high note with heavy vibrato or a short, intense lick. The tone is more likely to start to distort from a heavy touch on the peak notes. Attack changes as the solo builds. Blues players are less adventurous with harmony.
I tend to hear the music the blues way. At times I wish I didn't, but I can't seem to do it the other way. It is certainly possible to approach a harmonically complex jazz style tune with a structurally blues approach. The reverse can be done too, but blues fans aren't likely to appreciate it.
I think that Gypsy jazz has another kind of approach, encompassing incredible chops with the blues sort of passion. Using, of course, the kind of harmony of those tunes.
Rock has changed from a blues type of approach to players like Tom Morello who are harmonically rooted in something else.
It's hard to discuss this without rambling because none of this falls neatly into categories.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That's a nice sounding guitar Tommo - is it a Gibson or an Epi?
Cool again Jeff - I was just imagining sitting in a club swapping licks with y'all ad infinitum! How's the beer in Chicago?
Thanks John A.
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I have very strong opinions about this, so I hope I don't rub anybody the wrong way.
Blues is like speaking with an accent. And it took a lot for me to type that, because I basically hate the "music is language " metaphor. But blues is not a tone, or bent strings, or definitely not a chord progression. Its phrasing, it's inflection...and yeah, its those "blue notes," too.
I find it interesting that RP used Morello as a "non blues" influence because i hear a ton of blues there. And many of his solos seem to mimic a hip hop dj scratching a record...and I think hip hop/rap is incredibly connected to the blues.
I definitely picked tunes the first 10 weeks with strong blues tendencies, because to me, that's jazz. But you have to think of blues in a broader sense too...I thought Night Dreamer is the blues..I think Naima is the blues.. its all over a Love Supreme...even Ascension. I hear the blues in almost every kind of jazz worth listening to.
Guitar playing, and jazz guitar playing, is very much populated by white dudes...and hey, I'm one of 'em. For some reason, a lot of jazz guitar players (and to be fair-- not so much HERE) shy away from the blues...or they feel like they're not supposed to play it, or even sometimes, like "hey I play jazz now, ive graduated from blues." And I think thats not very good. I've even seen people (again, not here) try to downplay the importance of blues to jazz...that kind of thinking makes me feel like those people have absolutely no business playing jazz at all.
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I doubt I'll have enough time to put together a backing track (especially given my hunt and peck keyboard non-chops).
Plus for me it kind of defeats the purpose of these "jam" threads. I'm trying to learn tunes quickly (if they're new to me, as they mostly have been), then play chorus or two, maybe the head and step down for the next soloist.
Youtube backing tracks are mostly lame, but good enough for these purposes. (And Mr. Sunny Bass is pretty cool) But if you guys are willing and able to do better backing tracks I'm happy to piggyback on that (parasite that I am ...)
John
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I think ill play unaccompanied on what ever Christian decides on. Its good practice anyway.
I'm definitely not sitting and recording a backing track.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I generally agree.
Where I draw a distinction is in the way solos build drama. I can't think of a blues player who does it with a seemingly endless stream of fast eighth notes. Or, with a rapid fire sequence of ear-bending harmonic movements.
And, there aren't many jazz players who would be likely to punctuate a line with a single stinging high note, like BB King did routinely.
And, of course, if you say "jazz tone" like folks often do on this forum, it brings to mind Wes or Kenny Burrell. If you say "blues tone" it brings to mind BB King or SRV or Albert Collins.
Of course, every in-between gradation exists.
I haven't listened to Morello much, but I was thinking of a live performance I saw on TV. He was playing a screaming lead with outside harmony. I thought he was doing something no classic blues player would do.
Years ago, I was at the Kingston Mines in Chicago to hear Son Seals. He's an interesting player because it seemed like every note he played was intentionally a bit off-pitch. When he comped, his guitar was, in fact, perfectly in tune.
An aside: It was the night in Autumn when the clocks "fall back". The club usually went till 4am, but this night it went to 5am. I'm a lifelong night owl and I couldn't make it to the end. I was impressed.
Anyway, he had a backup guitarist who outlined changes and harmonic movement like a jazz player. I spoke to him briefly during a break. He said that he had to be careful not to go too far in that direction because it would get him fired.
As far as shying away from blues, I see the point. In fact, though, I think of myself as a blues player, even though most of the music I actually play is associated more with jazz. It's because I hear building drama in a solo the blues way -- trying to get the guitar to scream. And, I've never been able to execute a classic jazz guitar style. Either not good enough harmonic ears, inadequate chops or I simply don't hear the music that way and I can't seem to change that. Of course, as an older player, I'm trying to improve my execution of my own style, not develop anything brand new at thsi stage.
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To really play jazz you have to be able to synthesise a few elements among them the blues and also classical harmony.
Gypsy jazz is heavily rooted in classical harmony; but also a heavy Eastern European flavour for obvious reasons. But spend any time with that music and you realise there’s a ton of blues in it too. Perhaps a little more second hand, but the harmonic approach is all over it.
But there’s also something else. Django and Grapelli’s music as frequently borrows from Impressionism as that in Bill Evans, but there’s also a distinctive African influence you can find in jazz harmony going back to Louis.
In jazz in general would say that use of pentatonics and parallelism (and the relaxation of the function of the leading tone) originate as much in jazz’s African heritage as its European, and you can hear in the music of the Balafon for instance.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Anyway, speaking of blues ,I think your description is true of what blues is now, but in the same way some aspects of BB, Albert Collins etc have been picked up on at the expense of others.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
John
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Originally Posted by christianm77
But what I am saying is when I hear white musicians downplay the importance of blues in jazz, its like--to my ears--trying to downplay the fact that jazz is black music. And that bothers me, because it's almost always guitar players i hear doing it...
And yes, plenty of blues in Rosenwinkel. I think its a pretty narrow view of the blues that makes people make statements like that.
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Originally Posted by Peter C
Good posts about the blues. I have my own strong views on the topic - that being said I would agree with most of what has been posted above.
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The blues has a lot of meanings. It can be a form, a tempo, a vocal style, a vocabulary, an intonation.... most profoundly it’s the feeling.
I think blues is also a bit more than simply playing a b3 on a major chord.
it’s an attitude to playing.
When I play this stuff and put in a little blues lick sometimes it feel like an affectation. The blues should never be that.
OTOH if you play a non blues phrase with the right energy it will feel like the blues. Everything Wes and Charlie Christian played sounded like the blues, be it blues or not.
I feel like my putting blues licks in because I want to be closer to the spirit of jazz would be missing the point.
OTOH I think this is very close to swing. And similar in that there’s a textbook definition, and a wider sense to it.
Basically it’s not what you play, it’s how you play it, and many jazz people get distracted by the note choices rather than the way in which they’re played. Which includes the blues, swing and all the other good stuff.
In terms of honouring jazz as Black music; that’s complex.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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That sounds fun. Let me know what song you end up going with, but keep it a secret til next Thursday...I've been throwing tunes at these guys for 2 months with no warning...I want to be surprised
Last comment on the blues:
Nothing screams hack like hanging on a m3 over a chord with M3 in it.
You listen to the greats...nobody just plays that note. There's always a tug up towards M3.
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After looking back at a few clips, I've noticed that John A. physically rocks back and forth when digging in. I also move around a lot and tend to lay into the instrument, so maybe that has a lot to do with the way you're gonna phrase. Hmmm. Video clips are very useful and very revealing!
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This goes out to John A. who gave me a name I now love but won't dare say in public
Hope this doesn't get me in trouble, I only played a little of each...
John, I tried out your guesses (different song from same band for the 2nd reference )Last edited by PickingMyEars; 03-20-2021 at 09:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Peter C
JohnLast edited by John A.; 03-20-2021 at 11:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by John A.
Peripheral Gear, NWD
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