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Great tone and fluidity. Nice job!
Originally Posted by John A.
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03-14-2021 01:19 AM
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The tone is perfect. I covet it. I'm going for something similar but I end up with a harsh sounding edge to it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Lines, chops, all terrific.
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I recorded a piano version...
Just the right hand. I'm not a pianist so it's not super fluid.
That said, sometimes improvising on the piano reveals things hidden in the fretboard... you know what I mean?
Playing fluidly with both hands at the same time, comping and playing... I can just about manage that on a blues with really bare bones voicings.
My ears take me different places on different instruments... then I try my best to bring it back to the guitar.
The lines I came up with on piano sounded a little more interesting than what I did on the guitar... I dunno how I feel about that
I could post it, if it's appropriate for this thread. Not earth shattering, but not horrible. I did get lost... I was kinda pretending I was Keith Jarrett at one point. That's the beauty of playing other instruments on an entry level, you can have fun because you don't know all the rules and such and it's not your main axe so you allow yourself to just have fun with it. I pretend to be Max Roach when I play drums, and my drumming is pretty bad (like bad bad not good bad). I share his birthdate so that should count for something
Either way, I gotta shed the tune more. Everyone who emphasized hearing the melody when you solo is giving golden advice. Especially for a more complex tune like this one. The more I hear the melody, the more centered I feel. C to shining C.
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To echo ragman, how important is it that we understand a tune to play it?
Dolphin Dance is quite slow and the chords and melody are nice.
As lay listener I don’t think it would sound ‘out there’ to me. It’s just because as jazz players we look at the changes and there’s not so many obvious/familiar moves.
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It doesn't sound "out there" at all - question is: what does it take to make my improvisation sound like that without hitting bum notes....? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Some parts of the tune are quite ‘standard’ e.g. a sprinkling of 2-5s in there, so they should be easy to handle. For the rest I would just aim at the chord tones and try to create melodies that sound right. If you can try to connect them smoothly sometimes, rather than jumping around the fingerboard when the chords shift, it helps. But some sudden shifts can add interest too. Originally Posted by TOMMO
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You take the notes in the chords and turn them into a melody? Originally Posted by TOMMO
You can do it out of the grips. Drop 2's make great soloing materials for example. Add in some passing tones.
Take the melody and change the rhythm. Add in some chord tone stuff.
It obviously takes a bit of practice but there's not much thinking or understanding one has to do really. Just have to spend some time getting used to the tune. But if you can comp it you can solo on it.... If.
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Dolphin Dance is not for beginners. Originally Posted by christianm77
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You think what I put down is just beginners stuff to practice? Originally Posted by kris
I mean a beginner can practice it.
But OTOH Peter Bernstein does this stuff
Everyones a winner. Maximise the utility of your knowledge.
Basically the thing is this: you either know the song or you don't. And to me knowing the song means playing it through a lot in lots of different ways. Usually by then I have enough different voicings and whatnot in different registers that soloing is really quite straightforward. I just express the harmony in melody.
People who worry about 'bum' notes probably have a separation between their soloing and chording. "What note do I play on this chord?" Simple. Play the chord (or some extension sub that complements the chord). Don't know where the chord notes are? Ah well, there's your problem.
(Of course if you practice a lot of turnarounds and II-V-I's and things you have a much better idea of where those notes are on conventional tunes)
The problem for me with this is it takes me a little while to get to know a tune like this which isn't exactly Tea for Two as they say; all the nooks and crannies. Everything is just floating over the top. And that maybe is the real problem. People would like a foolproof way to float over the top? Dunno. It's not without value to be able to do that, as we are often in positions of having to put it together from a chart etc. In this case, my knowledge of chords is going to be useful anyway.
It's a good learning experience for everyone.
And what is a beginners tune anyway? (That’s a question I would love to discuss.) When you are starting everything is equally unfamiliar...Last edited by christianm77; 03-14-2021 at 10:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Thanks for your encouragement and tips to the both of you! Originally Posted by christianm77
It's quite obvious, isn't it? - I've been stuck again in the rabbit hole of overly complicated thinking.
You've made that remark before regarding a tune in one of these jam threads. So: I still consider myself a beginner - does that mean I shouldn't try to learn how to play it? Originally Posted by kris
Interesting topic - how about starting a thread about it? Originally Posted by christianm77
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It sure has been and is for me. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I fear such a thread would come back to the same articles of faith.
Generally though standard beginners tunes are chosen because the scale choices are simple - the Aebersold factor if you like. Vamps are easiest, modal tunes next up, simple changes tunes like Autumn Leaves after that.
I would suggest that there are other equally valid criteria, especially if you change the way you teach improvisation early on.
Which tunes we choose is of relevance to that...Last edited by christianm77; 03-14-2021 at 11:04 AM.
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If I’m not sure what to play on a tune, I play lines based around the chord forms I can see on the neck. Chris Flory says he does this all the time.
Even Joe Pass said he did this, on one of those ‘hot licks’ videos he made.
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I love what we're all doing with this tune.
It's kinda like a Buick. Curvy. Beautiful. But a lot to handle. And the fins... like a dolphin:
That said, of ALL of us there was one person who sounded like they ate the original Maidan Voyage recording for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Sounds like that was the only meal for years. But each time, that person listened to a different detail of that recording. What was Herbie doing? What Was Freddie doing? What was George Coleman (not Wayne... I can't believe I used to mess that up) doing? I heard ideas from all those guys. And yet it sounded unique. Build and drama. It's not just notes, harmony, and rhythm--though those are key ingredients to it all.
Ronstuff, if I could play like your take at a jam session... I'd be a happy camper.
That's DEEP DEEP DEEP listening, my friend. Mapping out a tune is one of the steps, but DEEP listening is a key process. That's not imitation, that's research and respect for what Herbie and crew did on the original recording. And that is key to learning how to tell a story.
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I always find Dolphins a bit creepy. At least you know where you are with a shark.
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This is how lucky guitarists are looking at the fretboard all the time. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Learning tunes comes down to listening and practice. If you haven’t done this work, the other stuff doesn’t really have a chance does it? Originally Posted by kris
But you know people think about improvisation = spontaneous note choices in the moment. That’s not what it is necessarily.... Contrary to popular belief.
Over time one’s performance of a piece may coalesce and recoalesce with other musicians. Or when you get tired of the same stuff. But at a jam it might be in a bit of a raw state and probably involves lots of notes and generic stuff.
Spontaneity manifests in ways other than note choices and rhythms... sometimes the foregrounding of spontaneity can actually have a negative impact on doing something different or new. Every improvisor has to work this stuff out for themselves. I’m fed of playing my ‘spontaneous’ crap on everything. The study of compositions can be a nice way out of this, as can a reconnection with basic materials.
Dolphin Dance does get called. I confess I used to roll my eyes when tunes like this came up because I always felt people called them because they liked the record rather than the tune being open to fresh interpretation. But I’m much less up myself these days. I think there are places you can go with these songs but you have to work on them.
in the end I think I can concentrate on one thing basically which is; learn the bloody song. That’s enough atm haha
Anyway, I’m working on this one (this isn’t a tune that’s in my repertoire really and it should be). I’ll record something if I feel happy with it....Last edited by christianm77; 03-14-2021 at 01:06 PM.
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Anyway after all of that, **** it, it is meant to be a jam.
Here is me playing my ‘spontaneous crap’ on a fairly dodgy set of changes that I am - good god - reading from some dodgy internet backing track (as I say I need to learn it properly lol.) Urgh.
Not sure why I felt moved to say ‘C7’ at the start lol. Also I found the changes actually on the track to be at variance to the changes given on the YouTube screen LOL hence my reaction at the start haha
Right now I’ll try and learn the bloody thing (what this actually means is my students will be working on this tune this week lol.)Last edited by christianm77; 03-14-2021 at 01:33 PM.
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I think this is the key. Just jam on the tune until... it makes sense I guess? It's not a one where you can just jump in and do no wrong. So doing some kind of a sketch for future impro that would work. There is no shame in working things out and pre planning improvisation. Originally Posted by christianm77
personally not sure if I have time work on it now, or if my head is at the right place to get inspired.
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Yeah 100% Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Listening back to what I played. Some of it I like, some of it I like less. So the next step is play more of the stuff I like and try out other stuff where I don’t like what’s there
Obviously listening carefully to the original. I have a feeling this is one where the changes have quite a few variations from source to source shall we say
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These are my two recordings of practicing Dolphin Dance. one - with walking bass and dr, another bossa style.
I did not treat the exercise as playing patterns, but wanted to focus on building the solo - as long as possible phrases. This is the difficulty of this song to make the chorus solos form a whole.
Box
Box
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I might take what Rags said and apply it to transcription.
You don't have to always do a theoretical deep dive on a solo to play it. Or apply it.
If you go over board mapping chord tones and scales you might overlook the OTHER stuff that makes the solo sound great...
Dynamics.
Articulation.
Thematic Development -- I would argue that you don't even need heavy theory for that either.
Phraseology -- how are phrases built
Melodic Contour -- trace the note heads as a connect the dots exercise. Observe the shapes. Can you hear them in your hear after you play them for a while?
Use of the original melody -- as we stated here.
Rhythm
Feel
Theory can be great as an element of the common language, but that's just it... theory is an element, harmony is an element, scales... an element. There's much more. I mean, it wasn't the scales and knowledge that got me into this music. It was the OTHER stuff. So it might behoove one to study all that other stuff as they get deeper and deeper into the tune. Practice shouldn't just be applying theory to a tune just like performance shouldn't be the only place where you focus on all the other stuff. I am constantly reminded of that fact.
Write an etude, but make it sound like something you want to listen to after. Chord tones, check. Scales, check. Now... how do you use them to make musical statement that's impactful? Etude writing is helping me A LOT with these considerations. I don't play these etudes when I go to jam sessions... I did try it once, it was interesting... anyway I write the etudes to get ideas ingrained in my ears. Then it's easier to use them in improvisation later.
And listen. Listen DEEPLY. That's what Peter Martin and Adam Maness always say on their "You'll Hear It!" podcast.
I needed to type all that to remind MYSELF of these details too! I get caught up in chord tones and scales as well
Last edited by PickingMyEars; 03-14-2021 at 02:15 PM.
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Oh yes..... Originally Posted by christianm77
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Jim Hall vibes there. Coming along nicely. Originally Posted by kris
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