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Hate to say it, but no books has it's benefits.
Yes, I tend to lose the form more--especially for odd and long forms--and it makes compin' harder for me.
But... it forces everyone to REALLY listen. I've been at the other end of the spectrum. Jam sessions where everyone is TIED to the book, their eyes don't leave the page, and they need everything played as written. Everything sounds STILTED and it often feels as if we aren't even playing as a group...
Everyone plays at different levels, and I still use books as a crutch--especially when compin' (Bad PME, Bad, BAD
).
That said, the quicker you can get it off the page--for solo'ing, compin', or what have you--the more musical it will be in the long run because you will free up your senses to LISTEN.
(I tell myself the same advice everyday, one day it will sink in)
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03-23-2021 11:39 AM
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As long as they're written rather than spoken, we remain blissfully oblivious of others' scorn ...
Originally Posted by Reg
John
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I'm poor reader (can't sight read melodies for squat; pick up most tunes by ear and use charts to laboriously fill in bits I can't catch from the record), but I can usually comp and solo off a chart just fine (especially if there's a moment to scan the chart and map out the form mentally). Sure, most people play better on music they know by heart, but if the choice is between books and not being able to play at all, books are fine. Being doctrinaire about jamming from charts strikes me as counterproductive. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Hate to say it, but no books has it's benefits.
Yes, I tend to lose the form more--especially for odd and long forms--and it makes compin' harder for me.
But... it forces everyone to REALLY listen. I've been at the other end of the spectrum. Jam sessions where everyone is TIED to the book, their eyes don't leave the page, and they need everything played as written. Everything sounds STILTED and it often feels as if we aren't even playing as a group...
Everyone plays at different levels, and I still use books as a crutch--especially when compin' (Bad PME, Bad, BAD).
That said, the quicker you can get it off the page--for solo'ing, compin', or what have you--the more musical it will be in the long run because you will free up your senses to LISTEN.
(I tell myself the same advice everyday, one day it will sink in)
John
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I'm not anti book, but I'd much rather play without. I don't find reading relaxing, and I play best when I'm relaxed.
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I tend to keep track of "Rules that just get in the way" and "No books" is one of them. It's just a rule that does nothing. Having band members floundering during the tune because they aren't allowed to look at a chart, and thus ruining the performance, is bad music. Being slavishly bound to a book is also a poor use of the tool. Originally Posted by John A.
Someday I am going to list the "rules that just get in the way" for my own enjoyment and edification. Spotting such, and learning to leave them behind, is a great path toward freedom.
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I'm not opposed to "no books" at a jam, as long as you're calling tunes that people are likely to know. I think there's tremendous value in knowing the tune, getting your face out of the book, and using those brain cells to make jazz with the other players.
But, if you're the one making people close the books and then calling tunes that more than half the people haven't ever heard -- and you whisper changes to the bassist which the other players can't hear and the roadmaps aren't simple ... well, that's my idea of an AH move.
In fact, at the same jam on a different night, another well-known pianist started the night by launching into Autumn Leaves.
It struck me as personality. One guy wanted everybody else to struggle, the other guy wanted everybody else to have a good time.
If it was a class, I'd have a lot of sympathy for the struggling approach, but it was supposed to be a jam.
Locally, pre Covid, there was an excellent jam at a local restaurant. Run by Tony Peebles, a master player and a gracious jam host. When it was your turn you could call a tune or two and everybody would play it. Tony made sure that the choices were tunes that the various players would be likely to know. Even so, the kb guy who was kicking bass had a phone on the kb. Why not? Best to make sure that guy was on the changes, right?
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For me personally, getting to the point where I can play through the changes without the book while practicing means I am hearing the tune in my head. Totally separate situation if I were playing out and someone put a chart in front of me. You’re damn right I’m going to look at it! I think I would like to develop the skill of being able to read a chart not bar by bar, which I think hampers me somewhat, to being able to read a whole chunk of the chart at once to get an idea of where the form is going over the next four bars or so.
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Thought I'd throw this in. It's notable for its total lack of sophistication :-)
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Making people struggle... that's a self esteem thing and it shows.
I was talking about encouraging more listening. But making people feel crap about their proficiency to prove some point is definitely Arsehole territory.
As I said before, those are the people you don't grab a drink with after.
Those are the people that miss out on gigs after the jam because music is a collaboration, not a ceremony for worshipping the the biggest phallus... to put it nicely. The best music is a group effort in my book. Bill Evans, group effort. Cannonball's groups, collaborative effort (especially with brother Nat). Wes sounded so great on Smokin' at the Half Note because he had an AMAZING rhythm section.
I've been in those situations where someone makes a point to outplay everyone. At that point it ain't music. And, don't anyone mention cutting contests. I think even those served a different purpose.
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That's exactly how I see it. Teaching people lessons is for actual lessons and classes. A jam where people of different levels and interests are getting together to enjoy playing and hanging out is not that. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
John
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Exactly...it sould be about making the best music possible at the moment... Originally Posted by John A.
And as should be understood but maybe bears repeating...it's OK NOT TO PLAY.
I remember being a young pup (well, probably 21) and going to see Gary Bartz and his band at the Green Mill in Chicago. He had Billy Harper with him on tenor. They did a tune, wish I could remember, but it must have been something they hadn't planned, because Billy had a sheet on a stand in front of him...and after Gary's solo, he looked over at Billy, and Billy just held up his hand and gave a little nod. He declined. And the world kept spinning.
Really left a lasting impression on me.
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Is an old Zen saying? (Probably not lol)
’Speak only if your words are better than silence.’
Tough one to follow haha
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Just some basic musicianship.... Typically the house bands at a jazz jams are musicians that can cover and are there because the jam is on an off night. Like I said, I've hosted jams and put together house bands for years.... we all sight read and can cover.
Being able to sight read doesn't get in the way or stop one from creating the best music in the moment. Typically the house band is also trying to help the musicians sitting in play the best they can. When one can sight read, you usually don't need the chart after either.... looking at it, the quick analysis thing and some quick verbal notes to the rhythm section or after playing through it 1st time.
Eventually all tunes are like playing a Blues tune.... just getting through and playing a tune live etc... is not the problem....
Usually heads are still played and rhythm sections know how to create live arrangements that support the head, harmony parts, rhythm kicks.... playing changes that actually say something musically, (Head Arrangements). All good jazz players have ears, that's just a given. We know how to listen, interact etc...
Sight reading a chart is just like playing a basic Blues tune. Jams are not show gigs... players in town can stop by and show off and have fun, and developing player can sit in and develop... with help from pros. Jams are relaxed.
The other type of jam can be at Gigs where there is a working band or leader who has the gig. One night a week, the weekend or what ever the schedule is....and invites another musician to sit in for a set or part of a set or the entire gig. Usually to see and stay in touch with friends, and help create some new energy... or even draw if the player is well known.
And yes usually not everyone solos on every tune.... that depends on the room and reading the audience.
I would also say.... if one is using Jeff's Jam to try and improve... solo on every tune. Typically you become better at what you do... not what you think you do.
I should get into the comping aspects... but that should also be another thread.
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Bit of a hijack perhaps.
Going to a public jam has been way more difficult than jamming with friends.
My limited experience is that there's typically not enough time or flexibility to get properly set up. Oftentimes, you use whatever amp is there, it may or may not be near enough to you for you to make any adjustments. Since there's an audience, the leader is in a hurry to keep things moving. You may barely have time to tune (an argument for having a headstock tuner, to allow tuning while you're waiting to play, but I don't have one -- I use the tuner in my pedalboard). You may have to play standing up, even though you don't practice that way, or even play that way very much.
The result is, you don't know what the guitar is going to sound like until you're playing. You may or may not have enough volume. You may or may not like the tone. There is probably precious little you're going to be able to do about it.
Tempos are often brisk, which can be challenging without time to warm up.
The other players are likely to be unfamiliar and you'll spend some of your precious two-tunes trying to feel them out to see if they'll interact or respond or whatever. And, they, of course, don't know anything about your preferences, tendencies, strengths, limitations or dynamics. Although, really good players are team players and this works out.
The on-stage sound might be so poor that you can't hear anything clearly.
And, you might be there when somebody calls a tune you don't know. It's in your phone, but there's no music stand or other surface to place it on. Good time to sit down in the audience
You want to play your best, but the deck is stacked against you.
One of the pro vs amateur differences is the ability to sound good even in awful situations.
With friends, it's typically your optimal set-up, plenty of time to get things adjusted, talk through a roadmap, stop the band if a problem needs to be solved etc etc.
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I've never been at a jam where a host or anyone would say you cant use charts. Basically a phone with ireal pro, havent seen books in decade. But I and many others use it all the time with no problem. What can happen some types can vibe you for that, but its their problem. Usually the older musicians more chances that can happen, but again, who cares. If your performance is good, you solo is good, you swinging, the audience doesnt care either.
I have to say here in Shanghai everyone is using ireal pro, even bands on gigs, maybe a little too much. I saw a pro bassist reading All Of Me, but he still played good. I still like it better than in NYC, where you can run into some hard asses who think if you dont know a tune you're not qualified. That attitude is not healthy, and hopefully is a dying breed.
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Hep to the Jive, you're telling me you don't miss Mr. "I Was Kenny Garrett's Pianist" who sat in during the times we went to Terraza 7 for the jam sessions? That spot was really cool, liked the vibe, and there were some cool musicians who frequented it. But man... can one person's braggadocios attitude really ruin a jam session. If I ever make it to Shanghai, you take me to a fun jam session and I'll buy the drinks. We can talk Masters over Margaritas
There are jam sessions that you'd think are off limits and a lot of posturing, and then you go and... everyone is actually friendly.
Life is short. Don't be an asshole at a jam. There's too much serious business happening in the world to posture about who can and who play a jam. Want to make jazz personal and life changing? Take a page out of the book of Max Roach, Billie Holiday, and Duke. Otherwise, have fun and play some music.
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Woah, bro, thanks for reminding, that dude...lol. Yea, its in a distant memory. But you know what, it was more funny than anything else. You played with Kenny Garrett, you're so cool, what you're doing here haha. No, I dont miss any of it, but thanks for the memories! Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
Hep to the Jive, you're telling me you don't miss Mr. "I Was Kenny Garrett's Pianist" who sat in during the times we went to Terraza 7 for the jam sessions? That spot was really cool, liked the vibe, and there were some cool musicians who frequented it. But man... can one person's braggadocios attitude really ruin a jam session. If I ever make it to Shanghai, you take me to a fun jam session and I'll buy the drinks. We can talk Masters over Margaritas
There are jam sessions that you'd think are off limits and a lot of posturing, and then you go and... everyone is actually friendly.
Life is short. Don't be an asshole at a jam. There's too much serious business happening in the world to posture about who can and who play a jam. Want to make jazz personal and life changing? Take a page out of the book of Max Roach, Billie Holiday, and Duke. Otherwise, have fun and play some music.
In Shanghai most jazz jams are super friendly, you'd love it. Some real talent here too, from all over the world. Just like in NYC, but a much smaller scene of course.
Still didnt get to work on Dolphin Dance, was busy learning Spain for a project.
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For a long time all I could do was play jam sessions. I got pretty good at it!
Then I started doing gigs. That was a different story....
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LOL that funny, I spent most of my life playing gigs and then about 20 years ago started hosting Jazz Jams. There are many ways to skin a cat, oops a guitar.
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Hosting jazz jams, there’s a thankless job
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I ended up feeling like there's a different skill set every time you change settings. Originally Posted by christianm77
One thing to play at home. Then another with friends in somebody's house. Another for a coffee shop type gig. Another for a bigger gig. Another for a concert. PA/monitors make a difference. One thing with a quartet, another with multiple horns. Etc etc.
Charts or no? Unison with horns? Breakneck tempo?
I've never had an arena gig, but I'm confident it's yet another skill set. I could have thrown different levels of recording into the list.
There is a lot to learn, often under pressure.
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100% Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The pressure helps you learn...
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I wanted to get the point where I could play through the tune without looking at the chart, and I think I am for the most part there. I like this tune a lot and plan to keep working on it. Here is my take:
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Definitely studied that cut on Maidan Voyage with a deft ear (not deaf Originally Posted by wzpgsr
). Just like with Ron's take, your solo was phrased like a horn. Pacing, build, drama, resolution. I liked the rhythmic variety as well as the change in feel. The "floaty" sections still push the tune forward, you don't sound like you are meandering with the time and tempo.
Good stuff. I don't feel like I know the tune as well as I'd like to, but that's the beauty of it all. You can spend days, weeks, months, years on one tune. I spent almost a year learning Stablemates, and I think I need to spend another year getting that tune down cold... or at least chilled
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This is a tough tune to be creative on. I find myself struggling to find something meaningful to say but I love the changes and melody on this one.
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