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Hello Everyone,
A question......
When leaning scales and arpeggios is it best to memorize the intervals or note names as your learning them.
Also, when you are soloing, what is going though your mind as your playing? Are you thinking of notes, intervals, scales? Are your fingers falling automatically from years of practicing scales. Or can you hear what you want to play in your head as your playing and knowing where place your fingers without thinking technically.
I know, many questions but me being new to this at 57 I want to make the most use of my practice time.
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10-29-2020 07:29 AM
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I'm far from an expert on this, but here what i think:
To improvise i have to have some knowledge of what notes to use. So if something is in Emajor, i know what notes to use.
While practicing this, i learn or experience that in a lot of cases other notes are sounding good asswell. Not all the time, but on some chords.
This is the moment i want to know why that is.
in my experience it's better to learn theorie of the things you practice and know sound good, then the other way around.
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I'm certainly more interested in the interval than the name of the note. Then if I like the sound of a 9th on a minor chord, I'll know where to find it wherever I am on the fretboard. But the quicker answer is that you should know both, and then do as Charlie Parker says: learn all that stuff, then forget it. Just play. - I'm paraphrasing, as I can't remember exactly what he said, but it's something close to that.
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I rarely think about the notes names. Sometimes. They meld into the fretboard. I SEE the harmonic shape of the song across the fretboard. So I don't think in terms of licks or memorized patterns. I hear it in my head and follow the harmonic shapes.
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All of the above.
Mostly use that for reading, chord and scale construction and so on. I read notes as absolute pitches and think in terms of theory as intervals. Might not be the best way lol.
As Henry says improv is more of an intuitive thing (eventually)
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Originally Posted by d115
1. I concur with Henry's post.
2. Learn your scales, modes, and arpeggios.
3. Practicing arpeggios from the root is good, but practicing them from all chord tones will force you to have a lot better idea about what you're playing. It takes extra work in the shed but it's worth it.
4. Reading will force you to know the notes on the fretboard, so do that too.
5. When improvising - yes it's from conditioning but it doesnt have to be "years". It can be weeks!
On that last point, you need to practice Jazz Lines, not just scales, modes, arpeggios. So, playing some Jazz Line multi-chorus etudes - (ones that you either write yourself or study well so that you understand everything about it/them, and by that I mean every single note) until they are automatic with no mistakes, is one very good way to get ready for improv. A few tricks to get you going:
- Limit the fretboard area at first. 1-3 position range
- Start very slowly, and speed up as you improve
- Pause at chord changes to ensure the intended voice leading if needed
- Pre-plan a target starting note for every chord or at least every measure. Even if you fail to improvise with brilliant voice leading into those notes every time - make certain that you hit them.
There are many other little tricks to get one started with improv, these are but a few.....Last edited by GTRMan; 10-29-2020 at 09:31 AM.
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All the answers will probably sound vague to you if you're looking for a concrete, linear path to conquering the fretboard for jazz guitar.
Learning the fretboard is like getting to know a new city. You learn it by living in it over the years. If you only stay in your comfort zone and only commute from point A to point B, you'll never get to know the other parts of the city.
Note names, intervals, arpeggio/scale references, ideas for creating jazz lines with these, chord voicings, ideas for moving them and the familiarity with the sounds of all these are part of learning the fretboard. Even the rhythmic ideas are part of learning the fretboard as they are very much tied to the fingering choices.
The more familiar you are with them the more easily they'll be accessible to you when you are improvising or comping.
Is there a natural pedagogical order to learn all these different aspects of the fretboard? Should the goal be finding the shortest path and follow a highly driven albeit dry training regimen like a pro athlete? Or should the goal be finding the most fun and musical approach to learning all these in a holistic way but over a longer period? Would it be longer?Last edited by Tal_175; 10-29-2020 at 10:08 AM.
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Christian is doing his graduate studies in music education. Is there an answer to that (the last paragraph above) in the music education Christian? (ie holistic and creative vs methodical and efficient)
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
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"...me being new to this at 57 I want to make the most use of my practice time."
All of the above, but get a teacher! One that you respect and enjoy so that you will stay with it and stay motivated. A good teacher will know what you need to work on to maximize your practice time and answer all your questions and steer you where you want to go. I believe that directed, focused study with feedback (from your teacher, not your amp) is the fastest route to the bandstand, unless you own the club.
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All of your insights and suggestions are greatly appreciated. I think taking lessons might be a good way to proceed. So far in my practicing, I've been jumping around and the only measurable progress I've made is frustration.
I live in Long Beach, NY.
By chance does anyone know of any good teachers in my area...........Nassau County?
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Originally Posted by d115
Guitar Lessons NYC - Guitar School - New York Jazz Academy
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Hey look at this: Long Beach Guitar School | Book Your First Class Now
I took ensemble classes at NYJA and really enjoyed them. They also have one-on-one lessons and I strongly recommend you start with one-on-one lessons. It's worth every penny if you're willing to put in the time/effort.
My experience with ensemble classes is they can be great for learning common practice on the bandstand: intros, outros, keeping the form, trading fours, building repertoire, etc., but you still have to learn how to navigate the changes in a solo or comp in time on your own.
Best luck.
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I learn by the interval's first few times and then think of the notes while I play second, and after that I just play and dont think much about either like its just there in the back of my mind.
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See the shapes. you learn to do so, and what they are, through organized practice.
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Originally Posted by d115
Woodwind and brass musicians practice scales and arpeggios in all keys because there are multiple fingerings for particular pitches - some of the pitches in the third register of the sax have two dozen ways to be fingered. Even in "normal" playing, they learn which of multiple fingerings for the same pitch work best (smoothness and speed of changing pitches) depending on the other pitches and their fingerings for a particular scale or arpeggio.
Similarly, professionally trained orchestral strings learn position fingerings which help in choosing which string to play for a particular pitch (typically a bit more rigorously than on the guitar). So with all that, it is more than just notes, intervals, and scales - there are additional decisions of a more physical or mechanical nature as well. A great deal of the endless playing of scales for these musicians is to make these things as natural and fluent as possible.
My experience and observation generally is that as musicians move from reading sheet music or scores, into the abstraction of charts and lead sheets, on into improvising by ear, there happens what seems to be a diminishing concern with naming things (or needing to) and an increasing concern with how things sound (voicing, phrasing, feeling...) also perhaps with not needing to name these.
In my case, I already had years of clarinet and piano when I started the guitar. I decided from day one to learn the guitar by teaching myself by ear, no names for anything. That is not the usual way, but it worked for me... "hearing what I want to play in my head as I'm playing and knowing where to place my fingers without thinking technically" is how I play.
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Originally Posted by d115
If I'm reading some non-obvious set of chord changes that I've never seen before and suddenly I have to solo, I'm probably thinking mostly about chord tones. To the extent that I might have some brain power left over, I'd be trying to find the notes that stay the same from one chord to the next and the notes that vary by a half or whole step. I'd be on the alert for a guide tone line. But, this mode of operation isn't making art, it's avoiding clams.
There's another mode -- and that's in the practice room trying to internalize the changes so that I can feel them and/or analyzing the harmony. The analysis, for me, is more a crutch than a means of exploration. For others, it's a way of finding novel sounds.
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My methodology was practice scales and arpeggios for years. Some modes too for a bit. Then I just applied them. I slowly played through changes using them and my ears. I listened and listened and listened. After awhile they became part of my family. But I admit it can take years. It’s never too late though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by d115
Learning the note names for each string and fret is something I've skimped on over the decades I've been playing. It's something that's assumed until you start sight reading charts in flat/sharp keys. So note names are more important when it comes to reading and knowing the fretboard totally.
When soloing a lot of it is by rote. All the things that you've practiced for hours and hours should be at your fingertips. Think about the song, phrasing, playing with emotion, creating something. I do my best when the melody is playing through my head as a guide. I tend to make mistakes when thinking of note names rather than using my ears. Songs with temporary modulations (or other complex progressions) require more thinking of the fretboard logistics.
There's so much more of what to think about when soloing. Also, what not to think about!
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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I really wish people would stop comparing music to sports.
I don't many track athletes who are trying to find their own personal way to jump over hurdles...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
It's also got nothing to do with speed training or anything like that.
An example of "training like a pro athlete" would be:
6 days a week 4 hours a day regimen.
- 1 hour scale/arpeggio internalization major scale, MM all positions 12 keys. In scale steps, ascending descending intervals. Diatonic triad arpeggios.
- 1 hour ear training. 20 mins solfege, 20 transcription, 20 intervals.
- 1 hour repertoire. Goal 10 tunes a week.
- 1 hour chord voicings. All inversions Drop chords, 5 chord types.
etc. etc. etc.
I'm not saying that's how one should do it. But these types of regimens for musical training do exist. I'm contrasting this type of approach with a more laid back, creativity and making music focused approach.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Not that I think there's anything wrong with establishing quantifiable goals.
Obviously experienced teachers and students will be much better at realistic goal setting. A pro athlete or personal trainer will also know how far and hard to push, and the context.
I'll set goals for students based on what I think they can do. If they can't do it, it's on me to revise my expectations and give them something achievable. The goal is not really that big a deal, it's just a way of getting things moving and stopping practice being aimless which is the single biggest problem most people have. It's a week by week thing, so I can refine things as we go.
But ultimately, I've found when setting myself goals quantifying what I put in to be healthier than what than obsessing about what I get out.
For example, if you have the time, sinking an hour a day into repertoire is a good idea. Aiming to learn 10 tunes a week might be a less useful goal, because I can learn 10 riff tunes and so on very quickly, but to properly get into a Monk tune or something might take a lot longer. You might never give yourself the permission to go deep into something.
On another front, I might not be able to book a tour right away, but hustling for gigs an hour a day will be time well spent (even though it sometimes feels hopeless.)
You can also measure your progress, and thinking; oh I know twice as many voicings as I did last year for instance; that's terribly important. But saying to yourself 'I aim to double my knowledge of voicings by this time next year' might not be so helpful psychologically.
You are in this for the long game; so you want to allow yourself to build up good habits and enjoy the process.
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One import from sports psychology which I have found interesting and useful is the concept of 'interleaved practice.' Practicing for small slots and interleaving with other activities, each time with variations.
So over 4 hours
5m - scales
5m - ear training
5m - repetoire
5m - chord voicings
5m - scales
5m - ear training
5m - repetoire
5m - chord voicings
5m - scales
5m - ear training
5m - repetoire
5m - chord voicings
Until 4 hours.
Learning is slower, but it is retained better because you keep coming back to it. Need to memorise tunes and chord voicings? Use this approach instead. Obviously much harder to get deep into something.
It's also good because you can take breaks and come back to it constantly. If you do it properly it's knackering.
Also, we might think about the 10,000 hours, but most improvement in any given skill is done in the first 80 hours. So the trick is to find things you really suck at and make fast improvement. That is very good for the motivation long term.
I posit also that that 10,000+ hour body of knowledge we call 'jazz guitar' in reality is made up of many 80 hour chunks.
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the 10.000+ rule shouldn't be taken to seriously.
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