The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I play guitar, bass, and mandolin, and am currently playing bass at church, and mandolin in a band. I studied jazz guitar with a great instructor and player for many years. All told I have played guitar for over fifty years. I am a good reader in treble clef and I can get by reading in bass clef. Pretty much if it's written I can play it. My lifelong problem is I am poor at improvising on guitar. I can improvise pretty well on mandolin and bass, but on guitar it just doesn't click. It really doesn't matter whether it's jazz, rock, country, blues, or pop; what I play when improvising on the guitar just doesn't get it. I can't seem to come up with any interesting passages, and the flow of the improvisation portion of the song is dull, repetitive, and boring.

    Here;s my question; is the ability to improvise well something you are born with, or can it be learned? Every time I find a new tip on improvising and try it I end up in the same stew; uninteresting, and not a good fit for the song. I hear others improvise and it sounds good and seems to fit the song, but when I analyze what they played it is not something that is complex, but is more often some simple patterns. If this is something that can be learned, and if so, can you suggest a teaching aid I can look for. Or am I just missing some process you can suggest that will turn the light bulb on for me.

    Thanks in advance for your responses,

    One_Dude

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Last time it clicked for me went like that. I started a solo, thought "boy, this phrase sucked". Then thought "would I think the same way about a person who says "good day" to me?".
    Then decided to "respect" anything that happens with my notes, and yeah. It clicked this time.

    Probably you've heard something like that already though.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    I play guitar, bass, and mandolin, and am currently playing bass at church, and mandolin in a band. I studied jazz guitar with a great instructor and player for many years. All told I have played guitar for over fifty years. I am a good reader in treble clef and I can get by reading in bass clef. Pretty much if it's written I can play it. My lifelong problem is I am poor at improvising on guitar. I can improvise pretty well on mandolin and bass, but on guitar it just doesn't click. It really doesn't matter whether it's jazz, rock, country, blues, or pop; what I play when improvising on the guitar just doesn't get it. I can't seem to come up with any interesting passages, and the flow of the improvisation portion of the song is dull, repetitive, and boring.

    Here;s my question; is the ability to improvise well something you are born with, or can it be learned? Every time I find a new tip on improvising and try it I end up in the same stew; uninteresting, and not a good fit for the song. I hear others improvise and it sounds good and seems to fit the song, but when I analyze what they played it is not something that is complex, but is more often some simple patterns. If this is something that can be learned, and if so, can you suggest a teaching aid I can look for. Or am I just missing some process you can suggest that will turn the light bulb on for me.

    Thanks in advance for your responses,

    One_Dude
    Can you scat sing something you like? If you can, the issue is getting it from your brain to your fingers.

    If you can't scat sing something you like, then it's tougher. Not sure what to suggest other than the usual methods of building vocabulary, reading things, transcribing things, using theoretical devices if that works for you and maybe recognizing that your personal creative spirit is not aligned with some of the jazz you admire. In that case, I'd say, do it your way.

  5. #4

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    I can improvise pretty well on mandolin and bass, but on guitar it just doesn't click.
    If the above is true, then it must be some physical difference that creates this discrepancy within which guitar fails to rise to the same level as bass and mandolin. What if you played on the bottom 4 strings using the same technique that you use on bass?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    I hear others improvise and it sounds good and seems to fit the song, but when I analyze what they played it is not something that is complex, but is more often some simple patterns.
    Thanks in advance for your responses,

    One_Dude
    Yeah, you just hit on the essence of the art form if not all art forms.

    What you heard is the full impact of the phrase and not pieces of it.
    What you study are ways to create that, but you just keep hearing pieces of it.

    I seriously doubt Picasso ever saw a Picasso or any of the Beatles ever heard a Beatles song.

    But the way is ORGANIC ETUDES I'm convinced.

  7. #6

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    Is there a style that you would you prefer to improvise in more than others?

  8. #7

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    always think of beatles recording sessions...they'd bring in a great classical player..and say play something over this part...and the classical guys couldn't improvise..they'd demand charts...which clever george martin could provide!!

    i believe the desire/ability to improvise is innate...born with..or not..but can be somewhat developed with time and thorough rethinking

    a true improvisor is usually an improvisor in more than just guitar playing...life itself!

    Life is a lot like jazz. It's best when you improvise.- George Gershwin

    cheers

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    I play guitar, bass, and mandolin, and am currently playing bass at church, and mandolin in a band. I studied jazz guitar with a great instructor and player for many years. All told I have played guitar for over fifty years. I am a good reader in treble clef and I can get by reading in bass clef. Pretty much if it's written I can play it. My lifelong problem is I am poor at improvising on guitar. I can improvise pretty well on mandolin and bass, but on guitar it just doesn't click. It really doesn't matter whether it's jazz, rock, country, blues, or pop; what I play when improvising on the guitar just doesn't get it. I can't seem to come up with any interesting passages, and the flow of the improvisation portion of the song is dull, repetitive, and boring.

    Here;s my question; is the ability to improvise well something you are born with, or can it be learned? Every time I find a new tip on improvising and try it I end up in the same stew; uninteresting, and not a good fit for the song. I hear others improvise and it sounds good and seems to fit the song, but when I analyze what they played it is not something that is complex, but is more often some simple patterns. If this is something that can be learned, and if so, can you suggest a teaching aid I can look for. Or am I just missing some process you can suggest that will turn the light bulb on for me.

    Thanks in advance for your responses,

    One_Dude

  10. #9
    GTRman said "Is there a style that you would you prefer to improvise in more than others?"

    I am primarily a Jazz player, but the structure that puzzles me the most is Blues. I suspect that the rules (if they exist) for most styles of music are very similar, and that seems to be where I don't get it. I am beginning to think that I am just not creative enough to come up with interesting improvised riffs. I know a Bluegrass player who complained of the same kind of problem. She says she just woke up one day and everything clicked. I don't doubt her, but that doesn't seem to be in my future.

    Thanks again,

    One_Dude

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    I am primarily a Jazz player, but the structure that puzzles me the most is Blues.
    But can you improvise blues on mandolin or bass?
    I would pick a blues guitarist you like and try copying their lines. Then start changing a note here and there.

    I have problems improvising on guitar, but that is mainly because I just don't know the guitar fretboard the way I do the piano keyboard. In my mind's eye, I can picture right now exactly where the notes would go on a piano keyboard for a tune I might come up with, or the head of a jazz standard. I can't do that on the guitar: I learned the guitar totally by ear and never really learned what or where the notes are. I am paying for that lack of training now that I am trying to learn jazz, a lot of catching up to do. (My other big improvising challenge is that I play on my own and I'm into chord-melody, so I am trying to minimise the amount of single notes and not go too long without a chord or some kind of polyphony)

  12. #11

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    Have you ever copied some improvised phrases from players that you like? Because this is really the commonest way most people learn to improvise. And they often do it for a long time before they can create anything decent themselves.

    They don’t just suddenly start doing it out of nothing.

  13. #12

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    Improvisation is dead easy.

    All you need is a complete mastery of the fretboard, a complete and fluent knowledge of all scales, triads and arpeggios in every key, a total understanding of the use of passing notes, substitutions, octaves, leaps and idiomatic lines in every key and in every situation, a full knowledge of all the chords and chord voicings together with their substitutions, variations and usage in every key and in every circumstance, the ability to change your note choices to fit every kind of rhythm and style, a knowledge of every common and not-so-common tune, vast experience, ultimate musical ability, years of study and research, a thorough knowledge and understanding of music theory, especially when applied to jazz, a decent instrument to play it on, the understanding that music can be frustrating and therefore a certain indifference to suffering, dogged determination, confidence without arrogance, willingness to listen to what others say, the ability to differentiate between sound and unsound advice, and some luck.

    Nothing to it.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by one_dude
    GTRman said "Is there a style that you would you prefer to improvise in more than others?"

    I am primarily a Jazz player, but the structure that puzzles me the most is Blues. I suspect that the rules (if they exist) for most styles of music are very similar, and that seems to be where I don't get it. I am beginning to think that I am just not creative enough to come up with interesting improvised riffs. I know a Bluegrass player who complained of the same kind of problem. She says she just woke up one day and everything clicked. I don't doubt her, but that doesn't seem to be in my future.

    Thanks again,

    One_Dude
    I would not count on a sudden epiphany without working at it. There is a method (actually more than one), it's a bit of work but should get you going.

    Can you play anything over a single chord? For example the I7 and IV7 chords in the blues form?

    Instrumental Facility:
    1. Start by confirming that you can play the C mixolydian mode, C dominant bebop scale and C blues scale in one position/fret board area. Ascending/descending, slow to medium tempo, and with relative ease. (7th/8th position for C7).

    2. Same goes for the C7 arpeggio in both one and two octave forms.

    3. Play the arpeggio in steady eigth notes for one measure.

    4. Then do the same for the IV7 chord (F7 in this case). Same fret board area, same chord scales and Dom7 arpeggio based on F as opposed to C.

    Elementary beginnings of jazz language - "chord tone soloing":
    5. EDIT: Made a modification regarding confining the voice leading to only the guide tones. Regarding the above - repeat the two bars - but - "voice lead" the two arpeggios - meaning, when you change between the C7 and F7 chords, play the closest chord tone of the new chord at the change and continue with the arpeggio up and/or down for four beats in that same fret board area. A particulary strong voice led connection between these chords is the use of the guide tones. To use the guide tones voice lead by making certain that the last tone of the I7 chord is the 7th, and the first tone of the IV7 chord is the 3rd. In this key that means end the C7 chord on Bb, while making the first note of the F7 "A". In any case, voice lead by connecting to the nearest chord tone when changing to the new chord.

    6. This is termed "voice leading", makes some use of "guide tones" and "direct approach" (vs. indirect approach notes), but don't worry about all that right now. The main point is that this is the beginning of creating jazz language "chord outlines" made up of smooth flowing melodic lines.

    7. The above covered the first two bars of the Blues, so expand this to play the first four bars of the Blues in C: C7/F7/C7/C7

    Try that and get back to us.
    Last edited by GTRMan; 09-16-2020 at 07:02 PM.

  15. #14

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    How are you at picking out familiar melodies (Happy Birthday, Christmas carols, Beatles, folk songs) without the sheet music? If you spend some time trying to play interesting melodies that you already know, it might shed some light on how you need to approach improvising interesting melodies of your own.

    Best wishes for your music!

    PK

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Improvisation is dead easy.

    All you need is a complete mastery of the fretboard, a complete and fluent knowledge of all scales, triads and arpeggios in every key, a total understanding of the use of passing notes, substitutions, octaves, leaps and idiomatic lines in every key and in every situation, a full knowledge of all the chords and chord voicings together with their substitutions, variations and usage in every key and in every circumstance, the ability to change your note choices to fit every kind of rhythm and style, a knowledge of every common and not-so-common tune, vast experience, ultimate musical ability, years of study and research, a thorough knowledge and understanding of music theory, especially when applied to jazz, a decent instrument to play it on, the understanding that music can be frustrating and therefore a certain indifference to suffering, dogged determination, confidence without arrogance, willingness to listen to what others say, the ability to differentiate between sound and unsound advice, and some luck.

    Nothing to it.
    All the stuff in red is neither necessary nor sufficient to improvise. The stories of people for whom improvising "just clicked" remind me of the Necker Cube and the Spinning Dancer... the foundation of improvising stems from a similar perceptual flexibility to hear multiple possibilities and the experienced aural will to select one for execution.

  17. #16

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    It's a joke, Paul, come on.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It's a joke, Paul, come on.
    And a good one, I might add. I, for one, appreciate whatever moments of levity this forum provides, intentional or not.

  19. #18

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    I got it as a joke but there is some truth in it also. I went to school with not much knowledge of jazz.. omg. Just overwhelming amount of those requirements.
    But Pauln made a good point also. I mean, should be already good to go (enjoy) when knowing to play a scale in a correct key. And change the keys without any problems.
    This "not good enough" seems to be something psychological. It is a non-productive attitude. In my case, I've tried to learn as much as I can but that also meant that every damn time I try to play a solo, the same "practice-mode" takes over and the real joy just is not gonna be there.
    I've been pondering about that for a year or so now.
    One cool thing that happened thanks to the pondering - occasionally, I can get into this constant flow when soloing on some tune again and again. Last time this happened like 20 years ago. When learning classical guitar, got a piece ready and just played it over and over and couldn't stop. Now I get to experience the same thing with jazz tunes. I didn't even expect this to happen. And had it completely forgotten - that feeling. That's nice

    Scofield said somewhere "don't stop, maybe the thing you're after is just around the corner"

  20. #19

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    I don’t care about improvisation. I have enough on my plate just trying to make music lol

    Whatever the dictionary says, the real world definition for Improvisation = music that’s not written down, because there’s no way of telling what’s going on if you are just listening to a player for the first time.

    So you might be hearing something worked out or spontaneous....

    theres a lot of unhelpful mystique. The music is the most important thing. Focus on doing stuff that sounds good. The more you do it, the more flexible you’ll get.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    All the stuff in red is neither necessary nor sufficient to improvise. The stories of people for whom improvising "just clicked" remind me of the Necker Cube and the Spinning Dancer... the foundation of improvising stems from a similar perceptual flexibility to hear multiple possibilities and the experienced aural will to select one for execution.
    To me it's not a joke. Most good jazz players can do all of those things. I'm even mostly there myself through years of shredding. That doesn't mean one can improvise well or s/he is a great player, but it means they have the basic jazz skill set to build on.

    Without being fluent with the common jazz harmonic and melodic practices on the guitar, I don't know how a player can weave through the changes with interesting ideas and themes, be specific or general with chords when improvising and comp well. Good command of scales and arpeggios as well as phrasal devices are crucial to line building (ask Barry Harris or like pretty much anybody). Knowledge of reharmonizations, voice leading, substitutions come from learning tunes not just theory books and are also crucial to both improvisation and comping (check out any good solo).

    It's possible some players develop different, personal approaches that circumvent having to learn their instruments in a formal way, but every pro jazz player I've met and studied with could do everything highlighted in red and more. I studied with 6 jazz pro's over the years and met many others. The red highlighted stuff are basic trivialities for the experienced jazz players.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-16-2020 at 03:19 PM.

  22. #21

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    Then there is Andres Varady. Cover of GP. In the interview he said that he knows absolutely no theory. He's an ear player and he sounds great.

    He knows everything he needs to know to do what he does -- and he knows it by sound.

    OTOH, there are multiple great players who mastered the Berklee material and more -- and use it to great advantage.

    What do they have in common? Great ears, great musical imagination and the ability to play what is in their minds.

    This suggests an approach to development. Ear training, building vocabulary and working on the mind-hands connection. The first two are typically done together by copying recordings. The third one comes from time on the instrument.

    Theory is optional, but, that said, most people, especially those who aren't as gifted as a player like Mr. Varady, benefit from theory.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Then there is Andres Varady. Cover of GP. In the interview he said that he knows absolutely no theory. He's an ear player and he sounds great.
    I don't know what that means when an accomplished jazz player says they don't know any theory.
    Does that mean during their entire musical development their conscious mind was shut off? Their relationship to music was always just a pure aural, inspirational experience? They never developed conceptions that break down and differentiate musical events? They never had a mental approach in conquering musical or instrumental challenges?

    Or does it mean that they developed/discovered an organization based on their individual approach or how people around them thought about music? They just don't know the common names of the concepts they may have independently discovered or may be their mental musical organization is more custom fitted to the style they grew up with and it didn't need to be as general as the broader, formal music theory?
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-17-2020 at 08:58 AM.

  24. #23

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    As I recall the interview, he mentioned not knowing anything about scales. In a more recent interview he mentioned not knowing the names of the more complex chords he uses.

    My understanding is that he learned to play by ear. He could hear and remember even sophisticated sounds and find them on the instrument.

    He did not study guitar the way I imagine it is taught in college.

    I won't speculate on how he thought about what he was playing.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    intentional or not.
    :-)

  26. #25

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    I do feel it is too easy to build improvisation
    into a BIG SCAREY monster ....

    (and that mindset can actually stop you learning it)

    something i found that opened a big door for me , was some great player
    in an interview who said something like
    "it's not a big deal ....we all improvise all the time , children playing ,
    playing tennis , this conversation we're having now
    is largely improvised ..... same with music"

    (and the more you do it the better you get)

    all the stuff in red will naturally just come along for the ride
    i mean if you're learning How high the moon , you're gonna
    learn how to handle decending 2 5's innit ?

    then you learn Bluesette etc

    I don't think these lists of 'things to learn' are helpful ....
    even as as a joke , (someone might not get that it's a joke)

    unless the list of things to learn are songs ,
    then its fine

    but whatever , do you're own thing , that's just me