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Thanks for info.... best thoughts.
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05-10-2020 10:04 AM
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05-10-2020, 11:54 AM #127joelf Guest
Wow. We had a spirited discussion only weeks ago.
Get well soon...
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Just got this book today, this thread got me interested to know more about Shorter’s compositions and this looks promising. Contains quite a lot of transcriptions.
I didn’t realise that many of Wayne’s lead sheets are available from the Library of Congress, he deposited them there and the later ones are in his own hand (according to the book’s preface which is all I’ve read so far). The quintet’s recordings do not always match them, suggesting that changes were made in the studio sometimes (not surprising really). Anyway should be an interesting read.
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lol you can guess what I did next. Unfortunately I don’t think you can retrieve much from this, they are just ‘card index’ type entries. But kind of intriguing to search through.
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couldn’t resist...
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05-11-2020, 05:29 PM #131joelf GuestOriginally Posted by grahambop
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05-11-2020, 05:30 PM #132joelf Guest
Are there reproductions in the book of those scores in the LOC?
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Someone posted an original lead sheet of Yes and No a few months back on JGO. They’d be a good person to ask (can’t remember who it was)
Speaking of the difference between praxis based music theory (eg what resources can we use to solo on a Wayne tune? How can we write music that sounds like Wayne?) as opposed to aesthetic music theory (why do Wayne’s progressions sound beautiful and can we construct a theory to explain this?) I find papers of this kind demonstrate this distinction pretty well:
MTO 16.3: Waters and Williams, Modeling Harmonies
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Speaking of the difference between praxis based music theory (eg what resources can we use to solo on a Wayne tune? How can we write music that sounds like Wayne?) as opposed to aesthetic music theory (why do Wayne’s progressions sound beautiful and can we construct a theory to explain this?)
I always feel I percieve jazz piece (or record) from aesthetic pov (non-conciously) and I think it is correct... and it gives very true sense of it as a piece of art.
And I am convinced it helps with soloing...
actually to be fairly open and honest - what other resources one needs for soloing?
One should use ears and find the way to track the way for ears through the instrument.
Build it all up from the foundation... that is what really great musicians do. This is the only thing they do.
they listen and build up all the relationships every time again and again...
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Originally Posted by Jonah
I would have to disagree. I don't think it is. Which is why I don't think it can be both. Because if it's both you go down a massive rabbit hole of bullshit trapezoids before you have any actual music (see - the entirety of the JGO theory section.)
I think there is some value to be had in observing patterns, and understanding a musical language, its grammar and so forth. That's separate. But these things are probably a lot less necessary than we think. Direct pedagogy requires theory. But apprenticeship actually has relatively little direct pedagogy (see Lave & Wenger's work, for instance, or any oral history of jazz such as Berliner.)
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(This is the positivist in me kicking in, but as Aesthetics is sort of an Enlightenment project, it seems apt to critique it on this basis.)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
You see I do not believe in pedagogy as system probably... you keep sticking to the topic you are interested in now. Understandable...
I did not say one should study formal aethetics... it can be taught through practice of perception.
I.e. you just show, demostrate (generally speaking).. and they begin to see... like with kids.
I hope it is also clear that when I speak about aesthetics it does not exclude learning techniquesLast edited by Jonah; 05-12-2020 at 07:15 AM.
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I think Bill Frisell would make the best teacher)) If he taught...
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Originally Posted by joelf
I doubt he had permission to show actual copies.
So far I am enjoying the analysis, it is making me want to go back and hear the recordings again. He makes some good observations, e.g. discussing the short repeated motifs at the end of Shorter’s solo on Pinocchio, he notes that some writers say these are intended to illustrate the ‘scales available to the improviser’ or some such complexity. But as he states, in fact they are just based on the initial melody and Shorter transposes them freely. (Must admit that’s how I always heard them!)
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Sounds good graham... I’ll have to check it out.
Here is a solo sketch of Iris, warts and all
So the short improv and some of the voicings are derived from the quadrad analysis above, including a couple of voicings I don’t normally play.
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Originally Posted by Jonah
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I think you would enjoy the book, the analysis is quite detailed but seems very logical to me.
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The book includes a reconstruction of Wayne’s deposited lead sheet for Iris, then a transcription of the head as they recorded it. Quite a lot of differences, e.g. the original lead sheet is in 4:4, whereas the recorded version is in 3:4.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by christianm77
kidding...
I want to make Iris... I learnt the melody from record yesterday... and I did not look at the charts - but I want to shape up harmonic outline by ear too...
Maybe then to look for Wayne's chart... I find it fun actually... these kind of stuff - it is like Monk's stuff too, and many Duke's things -- sometimes we tend to imply quickly the general tendency of relationship we are used too... but when you dig better into the tune (not the theory! the particular tune) you suddenly dig that you playe dit wrong.. that small defences matter and they make some other system...
Actually that happens with traditional standards too with me... I immidiately here some traditional changes and pass by and begin to do something with that.. but then later I come back and when I dig into melody or maybe bass line in original record or other record I like.. I suddenly hear that there are nuances that are important
I recently tried to comp Summer's Song by Brubeck --- if you listen superficially it sounds just like very general and typical changes repeated all the time... and fucntionally it is in general true... but if I play thta way it will almost lose the identity...
it will be too general...
the thing is that in that kind of music the particular solutions become very distinctive ... that is why I say that the chord can become a functiion.
The functional relations begin to lose their semantic formative role
By the way some Joni Mitchell's songs ca be very tricky - they may have simple changes from functional point of view but they totally lose the character if I just play them from fucntion - you have to repeat her particular melodic phrasing (articulation rythm, very precise intonation that she has) and often use particualr chord voicings which do not seem to sound like -say - inversions of traditional fucntional triads any more -- just becasue you cannot substitute them with another inversion without losing the character (meaning/semantics)Last edited by Jonah; 05-12-2020 at 09:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yes and No ................................from my fathers collection
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Stay alert, Yes and No
see my other post
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... you might be going off the deep end.
the quadrad analysis approach or an analysis approach that calls Jazz harmonies... fundamental collections. MM becoming the acoustic collection....Dim. becoming octatonic and even using hexatonic or Agumented .... might be missing something. I mean calling chord scale a taxonomy... implies a miss understanding or at least... missing the basic point of CS. Their conclusion also pretty much states the obvious...
"My purpose here is not to show specific contextual operations or groups of operations, but rather to provide a space in which ninth chords of these four collections may map into one another."
Anyway... while interesting and fun... pretty vanilla.
I did like Christians vid... I like the feel and style he was approaching playing. sounded different, not the harmony etc... just his playing.
Yea the tricky part of playing Shorter tunes is the rest of the music, what you play besides the basic lead sheet or basic tune and melody.... and in a live ensemble setting. There are usually a few possible secondary and further levels of of creating relationships and their developments.... generally his changes are already a level or two into the "creating relationships and developing them", so generally you backtrack, make choices and then go. Different Tonal target references created different results... His chord blocks have choices which create different results.
And if the ensemble can't hear the differences or hear your choices... gets messy. years ago, last century I use to perform lots of Shorter tunes, back when the Jazz fusion thing was going on... back when jazz festivals had jazz audiences...
I'll try and make something... here's an old vid of ESP. It really sucks, a Hip-hop thing... don't remember making it, but from seeing I had a warm coat on... and no chops, must have been cold LOL
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Might be some crossed wires, I meant something I posted above. I didn’t read the paper. My eyes glazed over when I read the abstract.
I like the specificity of the quadrad thing. it works solo as well because you are playing basically the harmonic sound without it being - 1 b3 b7 -ish.
i do find I’m drawn to two basic sounds within it though, though, a sort of pentatonic sound (m/4 no 7) and a major triad with add b6 which goes well on just about every melodic minor type chord.
Strings comparable to TI Bensons without the...
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