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  1. #51

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    I have read mostly all of this and clearly there are just many different approaches. I would think about D melodic minor and C dominate but in reality the longer I play jazz it is more about thinking chord tones and where to take them. In listening just recently to Joe Pass play Night and Day on his Django recording the min7b5 chords all are progressing to a point and he seems to work right on the chord tones. It is almost as if he outlines the changes completely waiting for a point that frees him longer passages where the changes are not every 2 beats. Since as noted it usually is just 2 beats I am not thinking any scale for 2 beats for sure. In fact these days I try and stay away from that thinking.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Who plays straight scales?
    No, you asked "who plays straight scales?" Not who plays scales when improvising
    I answered students and masters. I don't really want to argue with you. Please try to maybe ignore everything I say from now on, thanks.

  4. #53
    Of course it's about chords tones. That's the explanation of why the Barry harris scale is custom tailored to fit the minor 7 b5 and V7 b9 . It's not a normal or straight scale. It's not even up from a root. It's a disguised descending harmonic minor pool of notes. All the stuff of C7 will work over E-7b5 A7 b9. The famous 5432 phrases of C7 work on E-7b5 A7b9. You won't like trying to pull 5432 phrases off of an E-7 Locrian or a A7 dim scale...

    Did Thelonius Monk not know what he was doing? And Parker too?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I didn't ask who practices straight scales, I asked who plays them when improvising?
    loads of people if you mean like a run of about an octave or so. Very often.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    loads of people if you mean like a run of about an octave or so. Very often.
    Over 2 beats, remarkable!

  7. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    loads of people if you mean like a run of about an octave or so. Very often.
    Correct

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    As some have been saying, let's just substitute "pitch collections" for "scales" so we can keep the discussion going. I'm interested to know what some of you prefer to pull from over the min 2-5 in various contexts. Do you address both chords? Do you just play V7b9 stuff over both? Do you favour certain PC's - like the harmonic minor?, alt scale? Chord tones? Extensions? Subs?, Chromatic embellishments? Licks? Devices?

    Let's face it, min 2-5's (and indeed minor keys) are not as commonly found or used in Jazz as much as it's counterpart in major. Personally, I'm beginning to prefer minor keys these days, so the more discussion about it the better!
    On the bandstand, I know what a minor ii V sounds like and I play a melody over it that sounds right to me.

    In the practice room ... well, I've never tried to isolate minor ii V's as a point of study. They come up in tunes. Then, it's knowing the tonal center, chord tones, consonant extensions and the remaining, more outside, notes. But even then, I'm practicing imagining a suitable line and executing it instantly.

  9. #58
    I gather many of you are not teaching large numbers of jazz beginners. I can't tell a student simply play what sounds right to you because they simply do not know. I can't tell them to imagine a line and execute it instantly. I can't tell them play what Mark Levine's books say to play on minor 7 b5 dominant 7 b9 progressions.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Honestly, I'd want to know if the subsequent Dm is a place of rest or if we get moving towards some other target right away.

    I can't chase changes anymore. I'd be playing anything that pulled me to Dm that I felt like at the moment. C7, Eb7, Dbmaj7, whatevs...
    Perhaps a bit of a newb question but how would Dbmaj7 work? I understand the C7 as its basically the same as E-7b5, the Eb7 is the tritone of A7 but Dbmaj7? Over the A7b9 the notes of that chord are:

    Db: 3rd
    F: #5
    Ab: 7
    C: #2

    So that are pretty good notes with the exception of the Ab, the maj7 of A7b9? Perhaps my mind is just poisoned by CST but playing a the 7 over a dominant chord (not as a chromatic or passing note) is considered not so nice?

    Thanks!

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I gather many of you are not teaching large numbers of jazz beginners. I can't tell a student simply play what sounds right to you because they simply do not know. I can't tell them to imagine a line and execute it instantly. I can't tell them play what Mark Levine's books say to play on minor 7 b5 dominant 7 b9 progressions.
    Good points.

    Might the following work?

    1. Check the student's ability to play what they imagine by asking them to play Happy Birthday, starting on a random fret/finger/string. If they can't do that, then it might be a worthwhile thing to work on. How? Time on the instrument - copying things, reading things. Maybe even playing scales, arps and triad exercises.

    2. Check the student's ability to scat sing. If the student can scat sing over a set of changes, part of the battle is won. The student can then be assigned to learn to sing and play solos, starting presumably, with players who don't play a lot of notes, like Paul Desmond or Hank Mobley.

    3. Then, as the student's ear becomes more attuned to the vocabulary of jazz you can point out how the theory can be helpful. Let's take an example. Bb blues. The transition to the IV chord is sometimes anticipated with a Bm, or Bm-E7. To my ear, that's a part of classic jazz vocabulary. So, the student learns to play and sing something over that bar that fits the altered harmony from a recording. Then, you can point out the theory e.g. how it's an upper neighbor leading into the IV7, or however you want to conceptualize it. Then ask the student to write/play and/or sing a line of his own using the idea.

    I taught guitar back in the day (and a little more recently) but not much jazz. So, I'm bullshitting here. But, based on how I learned, I think this approach might be a pretty good one. What I would try to avoid is what I think of as combinatorics. That's, to take an extreme example, a post which suggests working through every possible triad pair against every possible bass note. Maj min dim aug triads and maybe other tone clusters. And, four years later, when you're done with that, you still have no idea how to use them in a tune. My thinking is to try to introduce one sound at a time. So, that Bm counts as one. A simple tritone substition on a V I would be another early candidate. Hearing b9, #9, #11 and b13 is four more sounds, and they can be combined.
    Always with real life examples from recordings.

  12. #61

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    I just wante to chime in again and say that threads such as this is why I visit this place. As a beginner/intermediate I learn a lot. The C7 over Em7b5-A7 is a very useful simplification I probably wouldn't have figured out on my own. So far my simplification for fast minor ii-Vs has been to target the V7. This opens new sounds.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Average Joe
    I just wante to chime in again and say that threads such as this is why I visit this place. As a beginner/intermediate I learn a lot. The C7 over Em7b5-A7 is a very useful simplification I probably wouldn't have figured out on my own. So far my simplification for fast minor ii-Vs has been to target the V7. This opens new sounds.
    Worth checking this out, he shows how that basic method can be expanded to create lots of lines. In this case the example is Bm7b5 - E7 to Amin, the dominant scale used is therefore G7.


  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Over 2 beats, remarkable!
    I'm not entirely sure if I understand what you mean by 'who plays scales?'

    Music as I see it is treading a fine line between chaos and boredom.

    Scales are predictable - too many of them you will bore the bollocks off people.

    On the other hand people recognise scales instantly (whether they no it or not) so they are a useful musical object for creating melodic lines. Scales have been in existence for thousands of years...

    So I went through the thing of 'no-one plays straight scales' when I was deep into the chord tones and embellishment thing and then I started to transcribe more horn players and was like 'oh.' I think guitar players go out of the grips more, which is to be expects, but you even get scalar runs in Django and Charlie Christian.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Good points.

    Might the following work?

    1. Check the student's ability to play what they imagine by asking them to play Happy Birthday, starting on a random fret/finger/string. If they can't do that, then it might be a worthwhile thing to work on. How? Time on the instrument - copying things, reading things. Maybe even playing scales, arps and triad exercises.

    2. Check the student's ability to scat sing. If the student can scat sing over a set of changes, part of the battle is won. The student can then be assigned to learn to sing and play solos, starting presumably, with players who don't play a lot of notes, like Paul Desmond or Hank Mobley.

    3. Then, as the student's ear becomes more attuned to the vocabulary of jazz you can point out how the theory can be helpful. Let's take an example. Bb blues. The transition to the IV chord is sometimes anticipated with a Bm, or Bm-E7. To my ear, that's a part of classic jazz vocabulary. So, the student learns to play and sing something over that bar that fits the altered harmony from a recording. Then, you can point out the theory e.g. how it's an upper neighbor leading into the IV7, or however you want to conceptualize it. Then ask the student to write/play and/or sing a line of his own using the idea.

    I taught guitar back in the day (and a little more recently) but not much jazz. So, I'm bullshitting here. But, based on how I learned, I think this approach might be a pretty good one. What I would try to avoid is what I think of as combinatorics. That's, to take an extreme example, a post which suggests working through every possible triad pair against every possible bass note. Maj min dim aug triads and maybe other tone clusters. And, four years later, when you're done with that, you still have no idea how to use them in a tune. My thinking is to try to introduce one sound at a time. So, that Bm counts as one. A simple tritone substition on a V I would be another early candidate. Hearing b9, #9, #11 and b13 is four more sounds, and they can be combined.
    Always with real life examples from recordings.
    No I think that's all good common sense stuff. 2) is reminiscent of Tristano's ideas.

    A lot of my lesson is singing and playing lines at students and getting them to repeat them back. So the assessment is right away and I can tailor my approach accordingly.

    (Usually they try to distract me by asking nerdy questions about theory haha. That usually works.)

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    Perhaps a bit of a newb question but how would Dbmaj7 work? I understand the C7 as its basically the same as E-7b5, the Eb7 is the tritone of A7 but Dbmaj7? Over the A7b9 the notes of that chord are:

    Db: 3rd
    F: #5
    Ab: 7
    C: #2

    So that are pretty good notes with the exception of the Ab, the maj7 of A7b9? Perhaps my mind is just poisoned by CST but playing a the 7 over a dominant chord (not as a chromatic or passing note) is considered not so nice?

    Thanks!
    Dbmaj7 is not a harmonic choice in that sense. You are using it as a moving chord, voice leading.

    For instance

    Db F Ab C --> D F A C

    It's got two common tones and two lower neighbours.

    People freak out about Ab's on an A7, as it's a false relation with the G but you can 100% get away with it if they resolve to A - in the Dm7. Night in Tunisia has a nice example (well technically it happens on Eb7, but try it on A7. It works)

    Somebody mentioned that CST is really the study of extended chord voicings, which is a good way to look at it. Not every note in a solo is part of an overall chord voicing (in fact I'd argue conceptually that none of them are, but that's another story...)

    Now with harmony too, not every chord needs to be pretty sounding and euphonius in that dreamy CST way - some can be very harsh, but if we set them up with a good resolution, they will sound awesome. Of course classical harmony used this principle for centuries.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'm not entirely sure if I understand what you mean by 'who plays scales?.

    I mean, of course people play scales. I like to use exaggeration to make points sometimes, which I always need to remember cannot necessarily be picked up in type.

    I was really responding to the comment I made about "What is this thing Called Love?" being so very harmonic minor sounding in the melody, and then rintin said the straight up harmonic minor scale sounds like crap, to which I replied, "who plays scales?" Meaning, who plays straight through a harmonic minor scale on a minor ii V.

    I think you've done more transcribing than me, and more bop players for sure. I transcribe guys I can hear, and who I like, Paul Desmond, Chet Baker, Grant Green, Hank Mobley, Philip Catherine, Abercrombie, and in my experience I have encountered very little (in some cases, none) of straight scale playing. There's always a leap or a double back or triplet or a chromatic connection. So I balked at the concept of HM being somehow "not good" and another approach being "good," when they contain basically the same notes. And no matter what approach you use, the strong notes are the same, aren't they?

    I mean, there's only 12. To my ear, over a minor ii V, the "consonant" notes are HM, getting specific, that Phrygian Dominant sound. So that's 7 notes accounted for. I also think that if you play those notes in order, it sounds like some 50's mood music fake flamenco thing every time.

    So I mean, what are the notes, right?

    A Bb C# D E F G

    Ok, but what about the other 5? C sound ok? sure does. Add it to the pool

    A Bb C C# D E F G

    B and F#? Not my favorites. Maybe in passing.

    D# and G#? Hang on, no. Approach, sure.

    Getting stupid long already. I guess I'm just so anti "play this over this" Levine school I get all antsy. How many young players read that part in Levine and never look at the musical examples. Surprisingly many, to listen to them!

    What are the strongest notes? Which ones move me through the harmony? Which ones pull to the target (D minor)

    Those are all the things I think about.

  18. #67

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    It's interesting to see how we talk about playing.

    Just a note... CST is not a system for playing, it is just examples of note collections and possible musical organizational between them, as well as possible sources of linear and horizontal relationships.

    Like using relative and parallel relationships, you can call them melodic or harmonic.

    If one just transcribes examples from any example of any player... you can come up with note collections, you would still need some type of analysis to label use of note usage. Which would reflect a root and organization of rest of notes.

    Which as I was trying to explain in 1st post.... D- E-7b5 A7b9.... can be use as three root references.

    D, E or A.... meaning you could use as your tonal reference.... Dmin. E-7b5 or A7b9... What actually happens... is that reference also changes, depending on what you want to do. And of course... melodic characteristics, developments of and generally rhythmic characteristic....

    Obviously... rhythmic functional aspect can control or change melodic and harmonic organization... always.

  19. #68

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    Then why do so many people teach CST as if it is a system for playing?

    i mean I get stick for misrepresenting the system but I see people doing it with my own eyes!

    and then I come here and get gaslighted by fumblestudent or jazz fingers or whatever he was calling himself haha.

    but that’s the serious point. People do this and it sucks.

    (the really interesting thing is everyone knows it’s shit, but they do it anyway. I don’t think it’s bad teachers, I think it’s the lack of better toolkit for teaching groups jazz.

  20. #69

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    It's just lazy advice.

    Like "transcribe."

  21. #70

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    I don't think it's particularly helpful to think of m7b5 + altered dom7 extensions as coming from a parent melodic minor scale (at least definitely not in real time). It might be nice to note after the fact, but the end goal of using those approaches is to access nice color tones that we normally wouldn't use if we're just sticking to the parent major scale reference.

    If I want to use the natural 9 over a m7b5 chord, I'm not going to practice a mathematical conversion between Em7b5 and GmelMin and then switch to GMelMinor, I'm just going to practice knowing where the natural 9 is in relationship to the rest of the chord/scale tones, what it sounds like, and how to use it in a melody etc. Same goes for altered. After you're completely comfortable and have automatic fretboard access, you can then exploit all of the triads/arps/runs of MM provided that you've done the work.

    This is just the shortest (but takes real work) path for myself, and it might be easier in different ways for others. They all hopefully get to the same place of understanding no matter how we talk about it.

    Taking the path of least resistance is always an option too, but if someone has something to contribute and it seems difficult or cumbersome, it might be a good indicator of something worth taking a hard look at and enjoying a new challenge. Those connections will always get faster, and the more approaches that you can make use of in real time, the better IMO.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Then why do so many people teach CST as if it is a system for playing?

    i mean I get stick for misrepresenting the system but I see people doing it with my own eyes!

    and then I come here and get gaslighted by fumblestudent or jazz fingers or whatever he was calling himself haha.

    but that’s the serious point. People do this and it sucks.

    (the really interesting thing is everyone knows it’s shit, but they do it anyway. I don’t think it’s bad teachers, I think it’s the lack of better toolkit for teaching groups jazz.
    I think it's for a couple of reasons. There are fine players who use it. The jazz programs promote it. It's easier to learn this sort of verbal material than it is to learn sounds, at least for many people. Also, it is presented in on-line forums as the golden key to the jazz door and everybody wants one of those.
    And, it's a bottomless well, so, at any given time, there's always something popping up you might choose to work on.

    So, it's seductive.

    And maybe there's a lack of blunt, accurate feedback. It can be challenge to figure out how the musicians you play with are reacting to your work. When another player gets a gig that you were hoping to get, it's easier to think, "oh, he's got a lot more CST under his fingers than I do" while ignoring the possibility that he's also got better time, a better sound, knows more tunes, listens better -- all that fundamental stuff that you can't get from a book.

    And, even if you are aware of your faults, what are you going to practice? Great time feel is elusive for some of us. Getting to the point where you know what reharm the pianist just introduced on the fly -- how do you develop that in today's practice session? A great player can pick up your gear and get a better sound -- how do you work improving your touch on guitar? etc etc.

  23. #72

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    (There are other tools available)

    but - Meldhau made some funny comment about the players in his high school big band that didn’t actually listen to jazz playing the chord scales.... jazz played by people who don’t listen to jazz lol.

    well the solution is usually lug holes, but I’m keen to play around with sone melodic variation techniques with a group. Maybe I’ll get a chance at some point.

    A lot of students I find really aren’t in the place where they can do the Barry Harris stuff. That takes a lot of working towards. Their brains just collapse. He attracts a self selecting hardcore of absolute bebop nutters who are willing to stick it out.

    the pathway mapping approach I came up with a few months backs might be good as well. Variation techniques are the key, I think. That way you always have a good thing to play, you can give them a guide tone line or whatever and suggest ways of varying it. Or a bunch of alternative lines and choose which one goes where. Maybe a card system.

    I think it’s encouraging for people to play good sounding stuff, especially the ones who can tell when music isn’t right, but may not have the skills yet.

  24. #73

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    As this thread is in the Improvisation section rather than the Theory section, yet theory heavy folks are in abundance here, you may enjoy the perspective of an ear player on this question; or just consider this as an entertaining interlude.
    Played the chords to hear them, played all the lines below kind of instantly, but then it took about ten minutes to reverse transcribe myself.

    Eight note line of static harmony spanning both Em7b5 and A7b9, good for very fast tempo:
    Em7b5 -> A7b9 ...descending C A# A G F C# C A# (I hear this having a D# tonic)

    Four permutations of eight notes that distinguish the two chord harmonies, maybe for slower pace:
    Em7b5 ...descending F# D# (A# or B) G ... I like the B natural version despite the b5
    A7b9 ...descending A F# C# (G or G#)

  25. #74

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    Theory or not your enharmony just ruptured my spleen

  26. #75

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    Here's how I think of it:
    I'm in C Major, and I'm playing over a ii-V of ii (Dm).
    So, I just modify the C Major scale to include a C# and a Bb and end up on a chord tone of the Dm target.
    Simplistic, yes, but it seems to work pretty well to my ears.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Theory or not your enharmony just ruptured my spleen
    With the few chords given, does not D major suggest itself, a sharp key, so wouldn't all accidentals be notated as sharps, even when departing from diatonic scales for synthetic scales?

    Yes, playing by ear manifests the ultimate enharmony
    because the elemental musical objects are unique unnamed pitches instead of letter named notes that represent multiple pitches depending on key and the application of accidentals. It sounds the same to the ear.

    STOP PLAYING BY EAR AND CONTACT YOUR MUSIC THEORY TEACHER IMMEDIATELY if you experience sharp or crushing chest pain; sudden shortness of breath; sudden leg pain; sudden severe headache, vomiting, dizziness, or fainting; changes in vision; numbness of an arm or leg; slurred speech; one-sided weakness; sudden unexplained weight gain; sudden rupture of the spleen; change in amount of urine produced; severe or persistent stomach pain; vomit that looks like coffee grounds; black tarry stools; itching, reddened, swollen, blistered, painful, or peeling skin; yellowing of the skin or eyes; dark urine; right-sided tenderness; severe or persistent tiredness; fever, chills, or sore throat; severe or persistent nausea; swelling of hands, ankles, feet, face, lips, eyes, throat, or tongue; difficulty swallowing or breathing; or hoarseness.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    With the few chords given, does not D major suggest itself, a sharp key, so wouldn't all accidentals be notated as sharps, even when departing from diatonic scales for synthetic scales?
    Well not necessarily. D major is only 2 sharps, but what happens when you get to F# major, say? Use forests of double sharps? Sax players would have an aneurism. Actually I might have to start doing that, come to think of it...

    Anyway I thought we were talking about D minor, but true, we could be resolving to D major. Or D7, for that matter.

    Aside from my Collier level microtonal hearing and my custom fretless ES175 (jk) the main reason to fuss about enharmony is ease of reading and comprehension/analysis. (Also for someone sight singing the music, it would help, but I daresay that's not important here.)

    OK so:
    C A# A G F C# C A#

    These notes all belong to D minor (natural and harmonic), but it's hard to appreciate that from the way you've spelled it. C Bb A G F C# C Bb is better because instantly you can appreciate these notes are all in the standard D minor scales we are familiar with, and from a CST/harmonic perspective of the A7 chord - 11, b9, 1, b7, b13, 3, b3 or #9 (OK I'll let you off writing B# haha as I am not a music theory examiner), and b9. That makes more sense as a reader but also aids analysis, both harmonic (as I hope I showed) but also because the line is clearly a D minor key melody.

    It's either parallel minor/major modal interchange if wee are in D major, or the prevailing key if we are in Dm, right? Either way, that's the right spelling, it's just whether or not you have to use more accidentals.

    Even if you put the b5 of A7, Eb, it would still be D minor. Beethoeven used that note all the time, for instance. The conceptual idea of the 'altered scale' is a chromatic alteration of minor key harmony. It just makes sense to write it that way.

    (If you construct the altered scale as a melodic minor mode every note is flattened save the root. But no-one likes dealing with a b11, so we conceptualise it this way, which is to say as a minor key type thing.)

    So hopefully you can appreciate that the way you write pitches is actually a powerful tool for analysis. Bet you weren't thinking about D minor, right?


    Yes, playing by ear manifests the ultimate enharmony
    because the elemental musical objects are unique unnamed pitches instead of letter named notes that represent multiple pitches depending on key and the application of accidentals. It sounds the same to the ear.

    STOP PLAYING BY EAR AND CONTACT YOUR MUSIC THEORY TEACHER IMMEDIATELY if you experience sharp or crushing chest pain; sudden shortness of breath; sudden leg pain; sudden severe headache, vomiting, dizziness, or fainting; changes in vision; numbness of an arm or leg; slurred speech; one-sided weakness; sudden unexplained weight gain; sudden rupture of the spleen; change in amount of urine produced; severe or persistent stomach pain; vomit that looks like coffee grounds; black tarry stools; itching, reddened, swollen, blistered, painful, or peeling skin; yellowing of the skin or eyes; dark urine; right-sided tenderness; severe or persistent tiredness; fever, chills, or sore throat; severe or persistent nausea; swelling of hands, ankles, feet, face, lips, eyes, throat, or tongue; difficulty swallowing or breathing; or hoarseness.
    If you use Equal Temperament it does. But not all music, even Western music is equally tempered. Jazz, probably... Except blue notes.

    But if you have developed your ears, these things are totally an ears thing.

    I used to choral singing a lot, and C# in D major or minor is a different pitch from Db in Bb minor. That might sound pretentious, but if you want the chord to be in tune, often the major third will be a little lower, and the minor third a little higher WRT to ET. My wife plays cello and was a professional chorister so that shit is plain as day as her. Also if you play in cowboy keys, detuning the E a little is a common trick, to make the C and D chord ring a little truer, and use a capo to change key (also don't play the top note of a G chord I guess.) But that's a FUCKING RABBIT HOLE DON'T GO DOWN IT :-)

    But our music is so out of tune, and we are used to it. I once spent a week playing lute in Renaissance temperaments (they have adjustable gut frets), where everything is smack in tune, but you can never change key... And I picked up the guitar and was like 'oooo gross'

    And I haven't even got onto quarter tones yet... They aren't equal either. Everyone in the Middle East thinks the Egyptians are weird for playing their quarter tones sharp.

  29. #78

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    I recently brought in a chart of an original in Ab key signature.

    At one point I used a B natural (chord was Abm at that point) since I find it easier to read B natural than Cb.

    After listening to the University-trained musicians in the group bitch about it for what seemed like an eternity, I relented.

    My advice to you Cb haters, is: get used to it. In the long run it will be less painful.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Bet you weren't thinking about D minor, right?
    My ear was, but from there you are right! I blame it on modal interchange.

    While in aural mode I took the op's first chord correctly, but during the transcription, writing mode asked visual mode for the key. Visual mode sent "D something" to theory mode which didn't request clarification of "something" and went with D major (sharps) instead of D minor (flats). Enharmony ensued.

  31. #80

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    So... many options, for the record... Jerry used and still uses melodic structures, permutations and develops them inside of Harmony, the changes. Back when... he typically use standard functional harmony sources... Maj. Min. Dom with borrowing and H.Min. He got into note groups... Pentatonics, Hexatonics or triad combinations, B-/C- , B-/G- all the possibilities etc... Got into standard MM harmonic references. But generally uses the Maj., Min. or Dom approach.
    And added note approaches. He's pretty standard, he uses all the typical musical BS around, you know, melodic, harmonic and rhythmic etc..

    What i did back in the late 60's and through early 70's...
    Again layout the standard sources, Maj/min, Har. Min. and Melodic minor ( didn't get into Harmonic Major until I when to berklee a couple years later)
    And also the symmetrical scales and diatonic chords derived from.... Diminished, Whole tone, Aug., also Pentatonics, Blues and bebop, at least what I was aware back then.

    For example E-7b5 can be from...

    Maj./ Min.......
    -VII-7b5, Locrian,.......................................... . 1 b9 3 11 b5 b13 b7
    -II-7 with added b5 or Dorian with added b5.... 1 9 b3 11 b5 5 13 b7 (#11 or b5)

    Harmonic Min.....
    -II-7b5, Locrian #6, Dim.7 ...............................1 b9 b3 11 b5 13 b7
    -*VIIo7 with added note, also add the b7 to Har Min like altered with nat 5

    Melodic Min.....
    VI-7b5, Similocrian, Aeolian b5...........................1 9 b3 11 b5 b13 b7
    VII-7b5, Superlocrian, Locrian b5, Altered............all versions

    Harmonic Maj....
    II-7b5, Dorian b5

    yada yada.... half whole Dim. The Blues scale is cool and still use 1 b3 11 b5 b7
    Bebop Locrian 1 b9 b3 11 #11 5 b13 b7

    Then you start the added notes process....

    Same thing with A7b9... and Dmin.

    Then depending on the context, the tune etc.... how and what you want to use as starting reference to create relationships with and develop them etc...

    I personally use expanded Functional approach.... From analysis and choosing tonal references and relationships that I want to create from tune, any part of the Tune, not just the obvious melody, maybe just some tonal target(s)
    Or even from what happened the night before that was cool... Anyway I use Functional organization.... still basic Tonic, Subdom and Dom.... but I expand by using functional aspect with Chord Patterns... like I said above... a Tonal Target with a Functional classification can become a few chords, a Chord Pattern... which becomes one quality with one characteristic or Function. Implies a state of movement or not.

    Example as I said above... E-7b5 A7b9 D-.... can have many functional uses or just be a loop that has one.

    Anyway, I get that this is too much work for most, but what or how do others organize their usage, other than BH... I been through and understand his usage, it's cool... does anyone use anything else.
    Last edited by Reg; 03-01-2020 at 01:30 PM.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Harmonic Maj....
    II-7b5, Dorian b5

    Example as I said above... E-7b5 A7b9 D-.... can have many functional uses or just be a loop that has one.

    Anyway, I get that this is too much work for most, but what or how do others organize their usage, other than BH... I been through and understand his usage, it's cool... does anyone use anything else.
    Reg, thanks for this. ... I just want ask about Harmonic Major for Em7b5. Which one? E harmonic major has a G#. D Harmonic Major? (awkward fit, but maybe). I guess I didn't quite follow this point.

    My simple way of thinking about it is mostly based on individual notes. But, if I'm thinking about it more theoretically, I know that Em7b5 is locrian in F, so F major scale notes will work.

    It also relates to Gmelminor. what happens is the F note is raised a half step.

    It has the same notes as Gm6 and rootless C9, so, you can think about those and probably avoid clams.

    When the next chord is A7something then the D to C# movement becomes a guideline, although there are many other ways to outline the change.

    And, of course, you can think, it's a line in Dm. So you pick your minor scale. Dorian has a B, not so good. Phrygian has an Eb, not so good. Aeolian works. Meaning, all white keys except Bb not B. Then, you adjust the line to fit the chord of the moment. So, for example, when you get to A7 you consider emphasizing a note that will make the sound of the chord change. D to C# is most obvious, but, depending on the A7 extensions, you could use other notes.

    To me, this is not intended to help build a solo. Rather, it's background info on how to avoid clams.

  33. #82

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  34. #83

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    scales
    Scales are letters. Then you make words. Then you make sentences. Then you make sense. No sense = nonsense.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    So, back to the original post, does anybody know what scale approach Jerry Bergonzi prescribes over
    E-7b5 A7b9 ?
    As far as Bergonzi books are concerned:
    Depends on which volume and what section you look at.

    For example volume 2 Pentatonics chapter 6 "The minor 6 Pentatonic Scale":

    C-6 penta scale fits over (among others) Am7b5, B7Alt and A7Alt

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Scales are letters. Then you make words. Then you make sentences. Then you make sense. No sense = nonsense.
    Of course that would be learning how to write/read. Learning to speak we would learn letters last on that list.

  37. #86

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    I suppose that’s what I’m banging on about - learn to speak first

    otoh you don’t need to play an instrument to speak a language, so it’s not a perfect analogy.

    scales are good for learning the instrument

  38. #87

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    Funny Christian, I actually think the m7b5 is the most important chord in jazz...but I also agree with it kinda not actually existing

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Funny Christian, I actually think the m7b5 is the most important chord in jazz...but I also agree with it kinda not actually existing
    Call it a minor 6th with the sixth in the bass or anything else, but yeah man it is super important and beautiful.

  40. #89

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    Hey Rp... so you sound like you like clean approach. Which for most ears the Dmin with b6 and lines and chords also with that Bb sounds good. I don't... the last ting I usually want to do is have clean simple note collection. Of course context comes into play. Both approaches are great, I don't think it's a right or wrong, sounds good or bad thing. I mean if I was comping for you I would simple play harmonically what your doing. And if I wanted to... maybe improv a little with my comping, I would use common practice chord patterns with lead lines which would create the context your implying with you solo.... I generally might push or hint at other possibilities, but if you didn't respond... I would play clean harmonic chord patterns, and use rhythm to help create whatever your doing.
    ( just like BIAB) LOL. not really. anyway

    I used Roman Numeral... so the II-7b5 pulled from Har. Maj. would be... yes D- and the II- chord would be II-7b5 with a natural 9 and 13

    Locrian......1 b9 b3 11 b5 b13 b7..... From Maj. 7th degree VII-7b5 (with b9 11 and b13)
    Dorian b5...1 9 b3 11 b5 13 b7...... From Har. Maj. 2nd degree II-7b5 (with 9 11 and 13)

    Depending on gig etc... I generally use straight Dorian and add the b5 as a Blue Note... which makes using MM simple connection. All this BS is not background personally, it's all in the present. I don't need to think about options... they're all internal. When I plug a chord into my comping or soloing... the context can change, if I want it to. I'm not really a simple chords or harmony and embellish type of player. When I was a kid... that's how I learned... chord tones, melody and embellishment. It just got old. At least if that's all there was...

    Hey if your around... I'm playing at the club in WC on 3/21... come sit in again. I'll try and get a few more pros to stop by... wake the place up. It's tom's gig and I'm really just a sub, but I don't think he'll mind. PM me etc...


    Christian... LOL.

    Yea... hohoho... he's just a great player, I got a chance to perform with him years ago... pretty normal player, use chord tones, or plays changes and uses note collections and their permutations as development tool.

    Here's a recent vid playin standards at Press Room in NH....

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Rp... so you sound like you like clean approach. Which for most ears the Dmin with b6 and linl]
    Thanks for the clarification.

    I guess I sometimes participate in discussions when I shouldn't. I know others apply this sort of material in more advanced ways than I do.

    At various points I learned some combinatorics, like which scales to consider over a m7b5.

    I can hear/imagine some of these sounds better than others. My experience is that some sounds stick instantly in my brain and some don't. When I'm soloing on a tune I know well, it's entirely by feel. I try to make melodic statements using the harmony that I can feel. When I try to go beyond that into an application of theory (while on the bandstand) the solo inevitably turns south.

    I have thought of it like this. There are musicians who paint in oils. Infinite variation in color, depth, saturation etc. I'm more of a calligrapher. One brush, one color, but calligraphy is also art. So, I'm trying to make art using a narrower set of tools and techniques. How narrow? I broaden it as much as I can and I work on that daily, but, compared to some, it's narrow.

    As to this particular chord sequence, I might gravitate towards a Dm tonal center concept, pick the 6ths and 7ths by ear while maintaining awareness of the chord tones of the chord of the moment. Or, I might be constructing a melodic statement over a much bigger piece of the tune, by ear, and let the melodic idea float over these few beats without worrying too much about the specific notes. That works best when you really know the harmony of the tune. In the practice room, these days, I do pretty much the same thing.

  42. #91

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    Hi Mr Christian ......

    Very nice video , I could never grok m7b5 chords
    i just can't get them ....
    im glad to hear your vid

    i discovered that on a minor 251 in Amin

    I liked Dmin stuff , E7alt stuff , Amin
    also Dmin stuff up a min 3rd to Fmin stuff , to Amin

    so thanks for the video I'm gonna try some of your
    Fmaj , Fmin to Amin stuff .....now

    edit

    just it just tried it , yeah great
    i also like
    Fdominant , E7alt to Am(6) type of sounds
    Last edited by pingu; 03-01-2020 at 10:34 PM.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Funny Christian, I actually think the m7b5 is the most important chord in jazz...but I also agree with it kinda not actually existing
    m7b5 is easily my most favourite pitch collection. Whether you see it a a Dom9, m6, maj13#11... it's a cool group of notes. Personally I love to create pentatonics by adding notes to arps., and adding the 11th to the m7b5 is one of my fave pent sounds, so useful and cool in so many situations. I came across it via personal experimentation, but I'm sure it's a "thing" (a Coltrane thing maybe?).

    So stop dissin' the m7b5, or I'll come through your laptop screens and rip yer bloody arms orf!

  44. #93

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    Yea.. I like -7b5 also for bridge voicings.... When you play chords... comping or while soloing... voicings that have space between the lead note work better. The lead line is easier to hear, which makes it easier to expand harmonic references, (use chords that are subs, borrowed with relative and parallel or modal interchange etc...)

    Here's a example of common voicing implying different changes... you usually throw in other voicings to help create movement towards a Target, or keep the Loop repeating.

    X X 2 3 3 5.........E-7b5
    X X 5 6 6 8.........A7alt
    X X 9 10 10 12....Dmin
    X X 7 8 8 10........B7alt

    Or

    X X 8 7 8 5 ........E-7b5
    X X 5 6 6 6.........A7b9
    X X 3 5 5 5.........D-9
    X 2 3 2 3 X.........B7alt (G9) I usually add the#11 when I'm keeping the tonal target harmony... more like a II V.

    D-7 to G7 becomes a target within a loop.... The G9 or B-7b5 become common voicing and dual functional, doesn't need to be Dominant.... can have dual function. It's fun to have layers of function to develop in Loops, or chord patterns, Vamps etc... It doesn't always need to be Tonic Dominant.... Like I've said before... Subdominat movement, personally has more options and sounds more interesting.

    There are many more simple chord patterns besides the II V, I II- , II III, I IV, I bII, I bVII, etc...

  45. #94

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    Some of the examples can also be derived from Warren Nunes' formulation.

    Warren, speaking of major scale based harmony, said there were two kinds of chords, he called Type I and Type II.

    In C major:

    Cmaj7 Em7 Gmaj7 and Am were his type I. This requires overlooking the F# in the Gmaj7, since it's not in Cmajor, but lydian is often used this way.

    Type II were Dm7 Fmaj7 Am7 and, I think, Bm7b5 (I can't quite recall how he handled Bm7b5, but for what we're discussing, let's call it Type II).

    Within a type, the chords are interchangeable. Am7 belongs to both groups.

    Now, for minor scale harmony, I believe he might consider Dm to be the same as Fmajor. I can't recall specifically how he taught it.

    If so, Em7b5 becomes interchangeable with Gm7 Bbmaj7 Dm7. A7 would ordinarily emerge from Dmajor, but it's usually played with a b9 and/or b13, so I'm not sure how Warren would have taught that. Maybe diminished or maybe melodic minor. He also used whole tone.

    The Dm tonic would take, in this system, Dm, Fmaj7 Am7 and maybe even Bm7b5 (which would function as a Dm6).

    The system is simple and suggests some alternative ways to think about each chord, or the entire cadence as a whole (Dm tonal center). I think the results require an adjustment, by ear, here and there.

    If anyone knows exactly how he taught minor ii V's please let us know.

  46. #95

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    Yes, of course

    Type I - chords without an F
    Type II - chords with an F

    this is also the same as the working model used by Benson, Peter Bernstein etc which has been called Tonic/Dominant.

    (this also work with relative minor as everyone knows the b6 is funny)

    you know it’s gratifying to see other - and amazing - players came up with similar ideas and guidelines to the ones I worked out which basically makes me feel like I’ve been on the right track. It is also this concept which allows me to say m7b5 isn’t a thing (I mean if you practiced the locrian the most of all scales you could say dom7 isn’t a thing, right?)

    However, really the thing that I think is operative is - Type I chords are for fusion guitarists :-)

    that’s not quite true, but so much of changes jazz is about expressing movement into a chord. So Barry Harris for instance becomes largely about expressions of the major scale from the point of view of the dominant degree resolving into some sounds related to C major (yer Type I)

    Type I is a unified sound, so as George Russell pointed out, Lydian. The F# shouldn’t surprise us. Warne Marsh said you could use a C# too, if you voiced it right. (Although I think C# in the cycle freaked George out, so as far as I can tell he swept it under the rug.)

    Now Type II,
    the restless or ‘elsewhere’ region is diatonic precisely because it has that duality George Russell identified. It wants to move, neatly dividing the scale into three regions or in jazz with the relaxed status of the leading tone in jazz, two regions. These regions defined by the fourth as a non harmonic/overtone interval that creates its own harmonic region within the scale.

    i don’t think it’s any coincidence that historically the vulgar Ionian mode began to supersede the more elevated sounds of the Dorian and Lydian at exactly the time that harmonic movement began to become more and more important in music (the Renaissance into the Baroque); or that composers grew interested in these modes again as harmony became more colouristic and impressionist (Ravel, Vaughan Williams, Britten etc) as well as the parallel development in jazz and popular music - from functional to modal, static harmonic sounds, as well as the folky cadential elements found in the mixolydian mode.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-03-2020 at 03:37 PM.

  47. #96

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    Now minors an interesting one, because using a leading note (G# say) in the minor key forces the existence of the dominant region. Therefore we play in three harmonic realms in minor.

    - Aeolian/Type I (b6),
    - Harmonic Minor/Altered/Whatever call it Type III
    (at least b6 and nat 7 - maybe b2 and even 3 as well)
    - Dorian/Type II (6 also relative minor of Lydian, right? So back to George.)

    but modal interchange has a similar effect in major tonality too of adding more regions. Parallel minor and Phrygian are common.

  48. #97

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    This is SUCH an interesting and practical disscussion for me to read ,
    in that if feels like we're talking about how I actually play or think
    (or think I play) when I play

    ie. it feels like , in a tune .... I'm say in an Amin area/ or the dominant area
    pointing to that Amin (Bmin7b5 , E7alt , Dminmaj7 etc etc)
    then I'm another area , a Cmaj area/ or the Dom area pointing to
    that C area (Dmin , G7 , Db7#11 etc)

    keep at it please people .... I appreciate the ideas

    (although I don't have a deep enough comprehension
    of the theory to join in much)

  49. #98

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    Since it sounds like Warren's approach is of interest, I can offer just a bit more about what he played.

    Often, in lessons, he'd have the student comp "turnarounds", short or long (referred to how many beats per chord). These were ii V iii vi.

    Warren would then solo by superimposing all the other chords based on his Type I and Type II theory. He'd do it at high tempo and then name every substitution he played. I recorded some of the lessons and checked him a couple of times. He named everything he played correctly.

    As with all jazz, a lot of the magic is in the time feel. If you check out Warren's recording (I think it's on youtube) of Bach in Blue on the CD "Half Moon Bay", you'll hear an attack that sounds, to me, like a jackhammer.

    I'm not sure if others will find his harmony to be terribly advanced. And yet, he could play a brilliant chord melody on seemingly any tune. When you asked him to repeat it so you could cop some of the voicings, he'd just play a completely different chord melody, just as good, same tune. He could hear harmony. He was a fan of Bach, calling him the "first jazz musician".

    The jackhammer attack was very carefully thought out. It required 1) specific fingerings, 2) a tortoise shell pick he heated and sculpted to fit his thumb 3) very specific use of pull-off to make descending lines playable with alternate picking and 4) some major jumps from one position to another to facilitate those pull-offs -- all to accommodate repositioning the pick. He called this "speed technique" and explains it in one of his books.

    His lessons focused, while I was there for two years or so, on major scale applications, which included relative minor as equivalent, more or less.

    He mentioned diminished, whole tone and melodic minor, but I don't recall him going into any of that in detail.

    Hopefully anyone who knows more will chime in.

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm not sure if others will find his harmony to be terribly advanced. And yet, he could play a brilliant chord melody on seemingly any tune. When you asked him to repeat it so you could cop some of the voicings, he'd just play a completely different chord melody, just as good, same tune. He could hear harmony. He was a fan of Bach, calling him the "first jazz musician".
    Triggered. I really wish people would stop saying that.

    but yes I get it. A lot of Bach’s melodic techniques are found in bebop for instance.

    And everyone improvised back then... no big deal (how many jazzers can improvise a fugue?)

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Triggered. I really wish people would stop saying that.

    but yes I get it. A lot of Bach’s melodic techniques are found in bebop for instance.

    And everyone improvised back then... no big deal (how many jazzers can improvise a fugue?)

    Wish people would stop saying Bach is jazz, or stop saying "triggered?"

    I dunno. Bach totally didn't swing, man.