The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 82
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Just when I thought I was across most harmonic concepts relating to Functional Harmony I came across this quote on a recent thread posted by mikostep :

    ....

    " For example: on Dm7 dorian (So what) soloist have following choices (I'll explain it in steps):
    Step 1 - relatives
    1. Fmaj and Dm
    2. Cmaj (actuall key) and Am.

    Step 2 - dominants
    1. Cmaj-G7 and Am-E7
    2. Fmaj-C7 and Dm-A7

    Step 3 - further development of dominants
    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    Step 3 can be developed in other ways too.
    Now, try to play "So what" with all these choices and remember that all of this can be used harmonically and melodically.
    And this is just the beginning of harmonic possibilities. Another interesting harmonic concept Peter gave us is in the lesson about Harmonic regions. Many classically trained musicians are familiar with Schoenberg harmonic regions. It's similar concept, but with chords that works in jazz. Totally mind blowing lesson. In that lesson he played Blue moon in like 50 different ways. Again, it is possible to use it harmonically and melodically. "

    .....

    So, this, especially after seeing the corresponding Peter Farrell video touching on some of these concepts, has been blowing my mind. Farrell, for all his quirks, has somehow managed the impossible - he has somewhat decoded GB's methodology. He has probably come closest of all who have ever tried to actually describe the thinking behind Benson's line construction, along with many other facets as well.

    Why am I mentioning it here where you can go to the other threads started about Farrell's Benson Method? Because it's frickin' astonishing, that's why! ... And it's not getting the discussion it deserves! OK, I know some peeps consider GB to be just a super charged R&B chops machine, but this sells him criminally short! There is a sophistication and complexity going on under the hood that has baffled most since the 60's. I can remember transcribing some GB solos and just giving up trying to make sense of any analysis. I kinda walked away thinking "This dude gets away with playing anything over anything!".

    Yeah their have been attempts in books to transcribe and decode the GB style, but nothing convincing or groundbreaking. This Farrell fellow has been a private student of George's for years and has been officially sanctioned by George to create a series of books and videos which showcases the GB method. I'm no shill for these products as they are too expensive for me to consider purchasing, but how many of you have watched the free videos? It's akin to someone being shown Charlie Parker's thinking as told directly by Bird himself to the chosen messenger. GB's harmonic thinking is up there with (or in some respects perhaps even beyond) that of Bird, Trane, Wes, Cannonball, Herbie, Hubbard etc and as far as I know there has not been a method of either of these greats created under the auspices of the greats themselves.

    I know that some will pass on the whole deal because it seems like a 5 year course (or more!) on how to be a GB clone, or how to learn a ton of flashy lines with which to fake improv with.... but I'm not interested in that. I wanna know more about the origins of GB's peculiar harmonic insights. Where did he get them from? How much of this thinking was original? For example, does anyone here pull from the following matrix? :

    Over D Dorian:

    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    I gotta say, after listening to Farrell (despite his strangely unorthodox presentations!) share some insights into George's thinking, I'm realising GB is probably even more of a freak/genius than I thought he was. Kinda makes much of my previous harmonic "knowledge" redundant.... What do you guys make of it all?



  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    George Benson is a monster musician any insight you can get is going to be open up ideas for anyone on any instrument.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    This is more or less how most classic bebop players approached changes and improvisation, starting with Charlie Parker. It's not something developed by Benson, although he truly excels at implementing and exploring it on the guitar.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    This is more or less how most classic bebop players approached changes and improvisation, starting with Charlie Parker. It's not something developed by Benson, although he truly excels at implementing and exploring it on the guitar.
    Really? How come I've never come across this kind of thing in any "How to play Bebop" books? Can you show examples of where Parker was using some of the more unusual harmonic choices outlined above?

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    It's the whole concept of the era, playing chords over chords, or "chains" of chord movements over a single chord, or over a single Ii-V-I. This, along with the increased rhythmic complexity, was one of the major criticisms of Bebop from older, swing era musicians at the time. A lot of substitutions, extended dominants, alternate II-Vs chords, sometimes derived from non-standard chord scales, later all the things Coltrane did, and the generation after him. The end result being, taking a simple tune and essentially playing different changes every chorus or section. For example, Miles Davis band with Tony Williams is a band that comes to mind in really pushing the bar at the time. Benson is great at this, and talks a lot about it on his DVDs. But I think it was pretty common for Bebop players to think chords, not scales. And it is very interesting to see how this translates differently in every instrument.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    It's the whole concept of the era, playing chords over chords, or "chains" of chord movements over a single chord, or over a single Ii-V-I. This, along with the increased rhythmic complexity, was one of the major criticisms of Bebop from older, swing era musicians at the time. A lot of substitutions, extended dominants, alternate II-Vs chords, sometimes derived from non-standard chord scales, later all the things Coltrane did, and the generation after him. The end result being, taking a simple tune and essentially playing different changes every chorus or section. For example, Miles Davis band with Tony Williams is a band that comes to mind in really pushing the bar at the time. Benson is great at this, and talks a lot about it on his DVDs. But I think it was pretty common for Bebop players to think chords, not scales. And it is very interesting to see how this translates differently in every instrument.
    Once you see Bensons system somewhat broke down it's very chord based. Cascading raking arpeggios, and 'scales' and positions that are chord based in themselves(like 'boxes' but different).

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Thanx for the quote. Appreciated.
    The Secret of two chords matrix is just one of the possibilities that Peter showed us. Melodic minor opens a ton of possibilities (remember that all chords in MM are interchangeable). Harmonic minor, as Peter says "invite all your friends" to the party so you can use myriad of subs based on HM. But, what blows mind are Harmonic regions. Concept is similary presented in Schoenberg's book about harmony, try to find it, but the chords are different. I've been studying it for two years now and its just mind blowing. I keep on writing chord subs and possibilities I like every day. Yes, bebop era players used many of these concepts and almost every player had its own concept. George have incredibly fast mind and thousands of concepts to combine.
    But, I would like to add here that those concepts, although they are incredibly important, are just one side of the coin. There is so deep concept behind his rhythmic approach which gives the REAL sense to all of this (but which is absolutely neglected by many players). Peter glimpsed into that in one of his free videos and some explanations are in thread I started. I'm 100% sure that this is more important and if players would practice these rhythmic concepts, harmonic concepts would open by them self. When you start to feel the rhythm deeply than average its a simple matter of filling gaps, well not that simple maybe.
    Other thing is incredible technique that opens up possibilities. There was a lot of talking about George's left/right hand connection here on this forum. One important byproduct of correct connection of left/right hand is that player can understand and true meaning of playing lines and implement them appropriately. Lines are like phrases with meaning in language. You can't speak english in proficient level if you only know alphabet and just a few words. Scales are like alphabet, there are all the possibilities in them. But, for meaningfull talking, sentences should be made by words that are connected with ideas as connective tissue. So, scales are like alphabet, lines are like words or little phrases and giant lines are are like sentences with sense. After that comes storytelling [I'll write about that in thread I started) and after storytelling only George knows what, but there is something.

  9. #8
    I think Farrell himself observes that much of Benson's Harmonic thinking is very different to what's out there. Take a good look at that matrix above. There are a lot of #7 against a dom 7 chord, not as a chromatic passing note, but as part of a chord or arp sub. You don't see this in Aebersold, Baker, Coker, Bergonzi, Ligon etc. Can someone explain the origins of this matrix?

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Looking at the material in the OP, when I saw one option for G7 being Abm7, I recalled Carol Kaye saying on one of her instruction tapes (CD now), "Abm9 IS G7." (So for her, it's not playing Abm9 over G7, it's understanding that Abm9 is part of G7.)

    She is very big on chords, not scales, and used the phrase "Chordal Pattern System" a long time ago. Not as something she invented but what, to her mind, all the pros she knew in California had learned or picked up by ear (and what she assumed pros elsewhere had also learned or picked up by ear.)

    I think Alter (above) is right about this approach being fairly common in the Bebop era. (Though how it was described by the players doing it could vary.)

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Looking at the material in the OP, when I saw one option for G7 being Abm7, I recalled Carol Kaye saying on one of her instruction tapes (CD now), "Abm9 IS G7." (So for her, it's not playing Abm9 over G7, it's understanding that Abm9 is part of G7.)

    She is very big on chords, not scales, and used the phrase "Chordal Pattern System" a long time ago. Not as something she invented but what, to her mind, all the pros she knew in California had learned or picked up by ear (and what she assumed pros elsewhere had also learned or picked up by ear.)

    I think Alter (above) is right about this approach being fairly common in the Bebop era. (Though how it was described by the players doing it could vary.)

    Interesting, and I agree with the the conclusion

    I would add, if we examine the only questionable note in Abm9 which clashes with G7 (I mean Gb (or F#)) and make it fit into G7 by sharping to G we got the AbmMaj79 which is the very first arpeggio in Ab melodic minor, which is G altered scale. (yes I know, modes but would skip it for now)

    Playing G altered over G7 is a usual idea, including the strong arpeggios within that scale (if we are not into the scales)

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Looking at the material in the OP, when I saw one option for G7 being Abm7, I recalled Carol Kaye saying on one of her instruction tapes (CD now), "Abm9 IS G7." (So for her, it's not playing Abm9 over G7, it's understanding that Abm9 is part of G7.)

    She is very big on chords, not scales, and used the phrase "Chordal Pattern System" a long time ago. Not as something she invented but what, to her mind, all the pros she knew in California had learned or picked up by ear (and what she assumed pros elsewhere had also learned or picked up by ear.)

    I think Alter (above) is right about this approach being fairly common in the Bebop era. (Though how it was described by the players doing it could vary.)
    George says there are only two chords - major and minor. Sounds familiar? But its deeper than presented by that other great guitarist.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    There are a lot of #7 against a dom 7 chord, not as a chromatic passing note, but as part of a chord or arp sub. You don't see this in Aebersold, Baker, Coker, Bergonzi, Ligon etc. Can someone explain the origins of this matrix?
    The whole point of it is chord driven. You might end up with notes or chords that clash with the original chord, but still work because they form another chord, so it makes sense musically. It is a concept based on consonance and dissonance. Some movement creates tension, some resolves it. It is essentially out playing sometimes, but very bebop period correct. (As opposed to other types of out playing, chromatic or intervallic that are usually more modern).

    A start with alternate II-Vs is to think of playing a dominant G7 chord over say a Cmaj7 as Tension -> Release. The same thing can be accomplished by playing Dominant area -> Tonic area but over another tonic chord of the key, say E-7. So you end up playing an alternate V or II-V, F#-7b5 B7 resolving to E-7, and all this over the original D-7 G7 Cmaj7, or even as more out playing over just a Cmaj7 chord.

    Another approach is to take the G7 chord as tension and work with chords from different G7 chord scales. Say G7 altered, will give you two other dominant chords, Eb7 and Db7 to play over and resolve to the original Cmaj7. These dominants can have their relative IIs with them. Choose G7 half whole diminished and you have other chords. Or see Ab-maj7 as a chord sub for G7alt, then change the Ab-maj7 chord into say A-7 dorian, different chords and scales again.

    The easy part about it is that you are playing things and shapes you already know, simple lines and arpeggios over basic chords (Instead of having to learn a arpeggio of the type 9 11 13 or something even weirder). The difficult part is to actually hear and resolve the new harmony and role they play. Pat Martino does that a lot, Wes also.

    Here's an old video of mine done for students on a conservatory, where i practice some of these ideas. And here's the chord substitution chard i was looking at (sorry couldn't find the printed version ). Its fascinating stuff to practice, and it never ends, i 'm filling a second page


    George Benson secrets?-chord-substitutions-jpg
    Last edited by Alter; 01-25-2020 at 09:39 AM.

  14. #13
    MINOR 3RD SUB MATRIX: ii - V


    Dm7.............G7
    Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
    Fm7.............Bb7
    Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
    Abm7...........Db7
    Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
    Bm7.............E7
    Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)

    *any chord from 1st column can go to any chord in 2nd column............................................ ....................



    Dm7 - G7

    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj



    OK, so the top matrix is the one I know and use. Any chord in column 1 can progress to any chord in column 2. It's basically ii - V's at min 3rds apart.

    Now look again at the 2nd matrix and notice the chords that are not in the top matrix. Are you saying these chords are common bebop subs? Are you using them? Do you see them
    when analysing Pat Martino? I'd love to see some examples.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Look at my last post in the thread I started. You'll find your answers there.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Look at my last post in the thread I started. You'll find your answers there.
    The "story telling post"? I didn't see the answer there...

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    The extra chords are the maj7 ones that are introduced. The easiest way to picture them is through their min7 relatives. So Gbmaj7 = Eb-7, Bmaj7 = Ab-7, Ebmaj7 = C-7 etc.. And the minor chords are chords you are using already.

    Another way is to look at them as chromatic approaches, aka side slipping. Bmaj7 or Dbmaj7 for tension, resolving to Cmaj7 for tonic.

    Yet another way is the multitonic approach. Instead of a min7 dom7 maj7 chords for the II-V-I, use the same chord quality, and do it with min7 only, dom7 only, or maj7 only chords. So D-7 F-7 A-7 or Fmaj7 Abmaj7 Bmaj7 to Cmaj7 etc..

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Yes. There you got a part about home an away at the same time. That is how George sees the chords.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Also, try to find transcription "I'll drink to that" solo here on forum for examples

  20. #19
    I'm just trying to see the symmetry and methodology behind this matrix:

    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    G to E (maj 6th) E to C (min 6th) C to A (maj 6th) - no symmetry, nor any reason for it?...

    Is it just about how G7 and E7 relate to the "2 chords" idea (C maj and Am) and C7 and A7 relate to Dm and F maj?

    I obviously get how, say, Abm7 - Db7 is just ii - V of the TT, and that Fm7 to Bb7 is just the Back Door cadence. But the others elude me.

    The other chords are the #IV maj and the III maj. The #IV chord is just slide slipping to the V7, right? And the III maj is like V13b9, yeah?

    I get how all the examples you guys are offering can be used, but I'm trying to understand how the matrix above came about, and if it's a known thing?

    Further, Is the matrix offering subs that are meant to resolve to C (or it's own subs)?

    Or is it more about options for D Dorian? Did Cannonball and Trane use all of these in "So What" ? (I somehow doubt it). Or is GB the first guy to use all of these subs over a Dorian vamp?










    Last edited by princeplanet; 01-25-2020 at 12:20 PM.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Look for the steps 1 and 2 in your first post and remember its on Dm Dorian.
    Step 1 explains relatives Dm-Fmaj7 and Cmaj7-Am.
    Step 2 inserts Dominants for all chords above.
    Step 3 is further development of the above Dominants by inserting commonly used subs, but this time you have 4 unusual cycles that seems unrelated to Dm dorian but are actually part of its harmony.
    But remember playing in front/on/behind of the chord and home and away (flux and reflux) which brings duality to chords.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    I hope I don't sound arrogant.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Look for the steps 1 and 2 in your first post and remember its on Dm Dorian.
    Step 1 explains relatives Dm-Fmaj7 and Cmaj7-Am.
    Step 2 inserts Dominants for all chords above.
    Step 3 is further development of the above Dominants by inserting commonly used subs, but this time you have 4 unusual cycles that seems unrelated to Dm dorian but are actually part of its harmony.
    But remember playing in front/on/behind of the chord and home and away (flux and reflux) which brings duality to chords.
    Just saw this after I edited my post above it, and it seems to concur. Cheers.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Also, try to find transcription "I'll drink to that" solo here on forum for examples
    Hey, I did a search, nothing comes up. What thread was that on?

  25. #24

    User Info Menu


  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    George says there are only two chords - major and minor. Sounds familiar? But its deeper than presented by that other great guitarist.
    Joe Pass said three, major, minor, and dominant. Though to be fair, he said--IIRC--SOUNDS, not chords. And augmented and diminished chords function as dominant sounds--most of the time time--in context.

    You are right. This is a deep well. I think it helps to learn some great lines and gradually---at one's own pace---realize how they work. (I suspect that's what George did.) Pat Martino learned that way too. (Obviously, if your ear isn't that good, that option is not readily available.)

    Have you seen the NAMM video of George Benson and Carol Kaye jamming? Not the highest quality video but you can tell those two greats were at home playing together.