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Try FMaj7 Gmin7 Amin7 Bbmin6
on the upper four strings with the 3rd of each chord on top.
You can add some scale tones or chromatic approaches in the top voice so it move in quarter notes over half note chords.
The first three chords are simply a harmonized F major scale, which is why they aren’t terribly interesting. You could try adding dim7 chords after each of the first two chords, which would result in a chromatic walking bass line from F to Bb (quarter notes).
The Bbmin6 is the “money chord” (the most interesting one) since it’s not in the harmonized Fmaj scale. Its tension demands resolution, driving the harmony forward. Come up with a hip voicing for that chord and make sure you stick it at the right time and all will be good.
That leads me to another idea... After deciding how you want to voice the Bbmin6, work backwards to come up with voicings for the preceding chords that lead to it. It’s hard to think backwards on the bandstand, but a good thing to work on in the woodshed.
You also have the option of skipping the Gmin7 and Amin7 chords and just play a little fill melody between the F and Bbm chords to tie them together.
Another idea: Substitute Bbmaj7 (the IV chord) for Gmin7 (the ii chord). They are both subdominants in the harmonized F scale, so are nearly interchangeable. That voicing seems more interesting to me than walking up the harmonized scale. And it provides more of an “in your face” jarring contrast when the Bbmin6 “money chord” follows soon after.Last edited by KirkP; 08-10-2019 at 01:56 PM.
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08-10-2019 01:36 PM
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Fmaj7 Gm7 Am7 Bbm6
vs
Fmaj7 Gm7 Am7 D7#9.
I think the first sounds better and is, of course, correct. But, the second works too.
In fact, the second one seemed more like what you might expect to see in the vanilla book.
So I checked and found this. Apparently, there's vanilla and then there's really vanilla.
No Bbm6.
FOGGY DAY (A)
Key of F 4/4
[ F | Ab7 | Gm7 | C7 |
| F | Db7 | G7 | C7 |
| F | Cm7 F7 | Bb | Bbm |
| F | D7 | G7 | C7 |
|| F | Ab7 | Gm7 | C7 |
| F | Db7 | G7 | C7 |
| F | F7 | Bb | Bbm |
| F Gm7 | Am7 Gm7 | F G7 | Gm7 C7 |
| F | F |
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That seems about what I remember actually.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The Bbm6/Gm7 thing - it’s a colour change. Really it’s Gm7 as opposed to Gm7b5.
Again I tend to understand this stuff from the POV of the Barry Harris major6-dim scale. There are basic patterns that look exactly like the OPs version of the changes, and you can see similar things crop up in tunes like Autumn in New York, Celia by Bud Powell, I’ll probably think of other ones...
If it was D7#9 then it would need to resolve immediately to F. VI7–>I This is highly unusual.
I’ll need a while to think of an example from the standards rep where that happens, can’t think of one... only Insenatez?
I should try and write a tune using it!
Also 7#9 is not a very common vanilla chord colour in position VI; we would normally choose between m7 and 7 based on the melody. It’s more something that would come up in reharmonisation. (The #9 gets played on the VI7 chord plenty in lines.... but voicing is a different matter)Last edited by christianm77; 08-10-2019 at 02:59 PM.
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Great ideas and very clearly presented. Thanks! Originally Posted by KirkP
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Obviously - having just played it through you could just do
| F Gm7 | Am7 D7b13 | G7 | C7 | F
Which would work fine - great even - as a soloing option if you where heavily targeting the last F.
However as an accompaniment, though it doesn’t have any nasty clashes with the melody, it might sound a bit like you don’t really know the tune.
You have a slight problem with the D7 as there is the note G in the melody at that point. Doesn’t resolve by step as it goes to Bb. Might be able to get away with it. Bbm6/Eb7 fits perfectly as does Gm7 obviously.
I like:
| F Gm7 | Am7 Bbm6 | Am7 Ab13 | Gm7 C7 | F
Or
| F Gm7 | Am7 Bbm6 | Am7 Abo7 | Gm C7 | F
You also have the F on Am7 thing, so that’s probably really an inverted F chord - F/A, but tbh you see that a lot.Last edited by christianm77; 08-10-2019 at 03:41 PM.
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Adding a 6 to a minor triad just adds some color and helps cue the ear to where the harmony is headed. When I’m creating my own vanilla charts I usually omit it from the chart, but play it on the bandstand. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Also, as I think you mentioned earlier Eb9 is often a good sub for Bbm6. After all, the 11th of Bb is Eb, and the other notes are common to both chords. I love working through this stuff.
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Hey, wait a minute! That was me, the OP. Originally Posted by KirkP
Originally Posted by buduranus2
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Sorry, I should have doubled checked the thread. I was thinking he was the OP.
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No worries. Just trying to bank a few points where I can find 'em. Originally Posted by KirkP
Sorry, I should have doubled checked the thread. I was thinking he was the OP.
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I don't know if I've got "it" but I've got something. Why can't it just be F major for all the chords in the F scale and Bb melodic minor for Bbmi6 and C7? Seems too easy...
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Ok Originally Posted by buduranus2
Why does that seem too easy?
Why should it be hard?
It’s only a Gershwin tune, not Giant Steps.
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[QUOTE=KirkP;971573]Adding a 6 to a minor triad just adds some color and helps cue the ear to where the harmony is headed. When I’m creating my own vanilla charts I usually omit it from the chart, but play it on the bandstand.[\QUOTE]
I’m not sure if that’s what he meant... there was a Gm7, not a Bbm6. So the difference is a D instead of a Db (as Bbm6 = Gm7b5)
A touch of modal interchange in the OPs changes
Eb9 is pretty much always a good sub for Bbm6. Depending on context it may change the feeling of the chord a lot. Depends largely whether or not you lean on the 11th/1 (Eb in our example)Also, as I think you mentioned earlier Eb9 is often a good sub for Bbm6. After all, the 11th of Bb is Eb, and the other notes are common to both chords. I love working through this stuff.
For instance - the best way to play bebop on a modal vamp is to make that sub.... (what Mark Levine calls the minor bebop scale is just that sub)
This is also the origin of m11th chords in harmonic jazz....
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I first want to express my sincerest thanks and appreciation to you and the many forum members who have been so generous sharing their insight and guidance. You know, it's only recently that I've learned how to comfortably handle a minor ii V7. This is a big deal to me, because I can now manage jazz standards based on a typical 32-bar AABA structure. So while it's only a Gershwin tune to you, it's Giant Steps to me. Again, many thanks! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Of course. I meant, why do you think that what you are doing is ‘too easy’? Originally Posted by buduranus2
If it works and sounds good, it is good. Music is meant to be fun (so they say)
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Start with a simple line that follows the chords. Originally Posted by buduranus2
For example, (all half notes):
A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, E, C.
Then decorate it ( insert your own rhythm keeping the original 9 notes where they were)
A, C, Bb, D, C, C, C#, D, F, E, F, Ab, G, Gb, F, E, B, C.
I will try to demonstrate this with a video.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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This topic prompted me to noodle around with the tune, so I may as well post it here.
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Bingo! Treat the whole thing as in F major and when you get to the Bbm6 just flatten the 6th degree of the F major scale to address the Db (F Harmonic Major). Another approach would be to find notes that can be utilized across the four chords with possibly a one note switch up like, say, take an A minor 7 arpeggio and work that over the F, Gm, Am... and when you get to the Bbm6 change it to an A7 arpeggio of or an A7#5 sound. That way you don't sound like you are mechanically running the changes and you are getting some interesting colour notes.... Larry Carlton (Mr. 335 to you Christian!) does this all the time. Originally Posted by buduranus2
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This is a nice perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the A7#5 sound native to Bb melodic minor? Originally Posted by Roberoo
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A7#5 belongs to both scales. It’s misspelled as the Db becomes a C#.
I tend to like to flat the E as well as the D if I play the E, so that’s Bb mm. However, there’s often not really time for all of that. Scales are cumbersome. Targeting individual notes is a good idea where the changes are fast.
Harmonic Major isn’t really a thing melodically in the jazz I’ve checked out. Bearing in mind I am coming from the perspective of language not harmony. I see it more as a harmonic concept (as the name suggests) and tbh I don’t personally use.
This is because the leap Db to E is almost never heard melodically in scalar lines in this context and I find it hard to make it work.* Some players do think of it this way though - Jonathon Kreisberg for instance.
I think A+ is a very nice sound on Bbm. Don’t tend to use A7+5 but I haven’t paid any deep attention to Larry so I’m unfamiliar with this sound. Would give a Bbm6addmaj7 sound
It’s a minor plagal, minor/major interchange very common in tonal music. But trust us to start blathering on about thee million scale options. How about F whole tone? D harmonic minor?
You could play A7–>Dm on Bbm—>F for instance.
Then there’s the Barry Harris maj-6 Dim scale
It’s two beats haha. So arpeggio options are often the best option, but as I say one note is easiest.
That note - Db/C# is a useful thing. It gives you minor IV but it also looks towards the relative minor and altered dominant (V7b9.)
(* that aug 2nd leap is heavily managed in bebop lines, as in classical music in the harmonic minor.)Last edited by christianm77; 08-20-2019 at 05:26 AM.
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Btw for the I going to IVm and back again, No Surprises by Radiohead is a good example.
Gorgeous melody. Also in F. It avoids the the E or Eb completely as do many melodies in this context, so could be Harmonic Major. This would be a good example of how to use it (although I would probably tend to view at as major/minor interchange rather than all being one scale. Potato po-ta-to.)
The melody gives a Bbm(maj7) arpeggio on the Bb chord with an added passing Major sixth.
Radiohead’s good for scales. ‘Just’ gives you diminished whole half.
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After You’ve Gone is similar as is Stardust iirc. Those tunes all go IV IVm I though.
Going from expected major seventh to the more complex minor major seven is a wonderfully triste sound. Even Green Day got their head around it. It’s not really a jazz thing per se.
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That is correct. However, the straight A7 sound is not native to the Bb melodic minor but. of course a more crunchy sound. Originally Posted by buduranus2
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