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  1. #101

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    So you missed my conversations with DB about my love of philosophy and rhetoric, John A?

    I was saying that we take it as an opportunity to quell the CST for a moment and get into more examples of musicality form all of these musical events from our own playing--audio or video.

    Less talk, more actual music--I need to hear and follow that too (to the nth degree, I might add)

    On a different note, why is this thread starting to feel like "who's with Irez87 and who wants to get on the bandwagon and attack him"

    John A., I'm definitely not saying you--as you addressed both sides. But why do I sniff a hint of it on this thread?

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  3. #102

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    Forget it, I'm not gonna lose sleep over worrying about someone disagreeing with me, personally, instead of my ideas.

    Great form--again John A., I'm not talking about you or anyone else who directly participated on this thread.

    If I want change, I'll participate in threads that promote the change I want to be part of, and leave the rest alone.

    That, and I'm beginning to realize that all the back and forth is useless. It's like arguing politics.

    I think I'll record and post more videos--in the spirit of Lawson-Stone--and give short explanations there after. These posts are eating into my practice time and my baby time (that's no one's fault, but my own)

  4. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    On a different note, why is this thread starting to feel like "who's with Irez87 and who wants to get on the bandwagon and attack him"

    John A., I'm definitely not saying you--as you addressed both sides. But why do I sniff a hint of it on this thread?
    I don't think anyone has any beef with you, Irez.

    All the best.

    Matt

  5. #104

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    one person does, and quite frankly, I don't understand why...

    But I'll let bygones be bygones. At this point, it's not worth it. That's why they have the block option, right? I'm not a politician, so I don't have to worry about the implications of blocking anyone

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    So you missed my conversations with DB about my love of philosophy and rhetoric, John A?

    I was saying that we take it as an opportunity to quell the CST for a moment and get into more examples of musicality form all of these musical events from our own playing--audio or video.

    Less talk, more actual music--I need to hear and follow that too (to the nth degree, I might add)

    On a different note, why is this thread starting to feel like "who's with Irez87 and who wants to get on the bandwagon and attack him"

    John A., I'm definitely not saying you--as you addressed both sides. But why do I sniff a hint of it on this thread?
    I'm afraid I did miss that conversation. Having majored in philosophy, the one thing I learned is "the first rule of philosophy club is don't talk about philosophy club; I am a Cretan."

    Anyway ... I don't think it's possible to direct conversation the way you seem to want to. The only thing that works is to pick your spots.

    Regarding talking vs. posting examples of playing what one is talking about, that's too much work for most of us. I did post examples on the chord melody study group threads, and on a couple of those I talked about what I was doing (without mentioning a single scale or much theory at all). I'm not sure anyone found that interesting.

    TL;DR: the internet, it is what it is.

    John

    ps - not getting any attacking vibe on this thread, but in general it works better to assume no malice intended absent something really blatant.

  7. #106

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    [QUOTE=John A.;966622]
    I did post examples on the chord melody study group threads, and on a couple of those I talked about what I was doing (without mentioning a single scale or much theory at all). I'm not sure anyone found that interesting.
    /QUOTE]
    same
    White belt
    My Youtube

  8. #107

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    Servers been down... what did I miss?

    No bad vibes intended from this end.

    Btw a really nice tune that uses melodic minor harmony very musically is Kurt’s the Dream of the Old.

  9. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    I'm afraid I did miss that conversation. Having majored in philosophy, the one thing I learned is "the first rule of philosophy club is don't talk about philosophy club; I am a Cretan."

    Anyway ... I don't think it's possible to direct conversation the way you seem to want to. The only thing that works is to pick your spots.

    Regarding talking vs. posting examples of playing what one is talking about, that's too much work for most of us. I did post examples on the chord melody study group threads, and on a couple of those I talked about what I was doing (without mentioning a single scale or much theory at all). I'm not sure anyone found that interesting.

    TL;DR: the internet, it is what it is.

    John

    ps - not getting any attacking vibe on this thread, but in general it works better to assume no malice intended absent something really blatant.
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    same
    I LOVED those threads and appreciated everybody's input. I thought they were great!

  10. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Servers been down... what did I miss?

    No bad vibes intended from this end.

    Btw a really nice tune that uses melodic minor harmony very musically is Kurt’s the Dream of the Old.
    I love Angel eyes for shedding altered-on-half-dim. That melody really suits getting your ears around it. I know there are other approaches etc...

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I LOVED those threads and appreciated everybody's input. I thought they were great!
    wanna do darn that dream?
    White belt
    My Youtube

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I love Angel eyes for shedding altered-on-half-dim. That melody really suits getting your ears around it. I know there are other approaches etc...
    I mean a tune that's actually written with the melodic minor in mind. There's no melodic minor in the composition of Angel Eyes.

    You can certainly put that on the tune if you like, but it's not intrinsic to the way it's written.

    But the altered on half dim thing - you mean as in putting D7alt on Dm7b5? Well that relates to the French Sixth... Ab7#11.

  13. #112
    For OP, I got an idea. Take a tune that you'd like to play and improvise that has altered dominants. Or even just a minor tune. Sing the impro, use more "scaly" approach but don't bother forcing or overthinking anything. Avoid passing chromatism for more clear results. When it becomes smooth and natural - record it, transcribe and analyze. See if you're did some solid MM in your scats. If it makes more sense to treat them as MM and not as altering the diatonic, then it probably is better to hold on to MM?
    Just an idea..

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    wanna do darn that dream?
    I do it all the time. I guess we could try to re-start that study group. At the time, I voted against DTD, just because it seems to be the one tune that everybody does as a chord melody, and was enjoying the more off-the-beaten track choices. But it's a brand new day ...

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 07-17-2019 at 05:01 PM.

  15. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    wanna do darn that dream?
    That would be cool. I'm out of town all next week...

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
    For OP, I got an idea. Take a tune that you'd like to play and improvise that has altered dominants. Or even just a minor tune. Sing the impro, use more "scaly" approach but don't bother forcing or overthinking anything. Avoid passing chromatism for more clear results. When it becomes smooth and natural - record it, transcribe and analyze. See if you're did some solid MM in your scats. If it makes more sense to treat them as MM and not as altering the diatonic, then it probably is better to hold on to MM?
    Just an idea..
    Every (harmonic) tune has altered dominants if you alter them. You could do it with a 12 bar blues if you wanted....

    Any tune can be a melodic minor vehicle if you choose it to be. The colours are there for you to play with and you can take them or leave them as per your tastes.

    In terms of accessing that sound - well you could do worse than to start by singing each scale to the 7th and back, Barry style. Barry doesn’t actually do this - but it’s in the Howard Rees book (Barry uses 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6.)

    The advantage of that is that the 7th is rhythmically quite prominent, and that’s the most melodic minor note.

    Obviously you have the choice of whether you singing the MM scale (so D mm on G7#11) or the mode (G Lydian Dominant)

    Another very good way of doing this is to use Stephon Harris’s quadrads idea. He doesn’t talk about MM much at all - the scale is just a complicating concept really... so,

    G7#11 - A triad with a note from the G7 shell normally B
    Dm9(maj7) - A triad with an F note
    G7b13 - Eb with a B note
    G7b5 - Db with a G note
    Bm9b5 - A with an F

    Notice that a lot of these are based on the V of the MM related to the chord.

    This I think gets to the core of the sound much faster than using a whole scale. Of course you can conceptualise these as MM upper structure triads, but that’s not really necessary.

  17. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
    For OP, I got an idea. Take a tune that you'd like to play and improvise that has altered dominants. Or even just a minor tune. Sing the impro, use more "scaly" approach but don't bother forcing or overthinking anything. Avoid passing chromatism for more clear results. When it becomes smooth and natural - record it, transcribe and analyze. See if you're did some solid MM in your scats. If it makes more sense to treat them as MM and not as altering the diatonic, then it probably is better to hold on to MM?
    Just an idea..
    It's a good idea, but I simply do not hear the MM pool of notes against altered chords. I absolutely hear 11 possible tones against any Dominant chord, and that's what comes out in my scats. Mind you, I do tend to now "hear" ideas along the lines of those that I like to play ...

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    I do it all the time. I guess we could try to re-start that study group. At the time, I voted against DTD, just because it seems to be the one tune that everybody does as a chord melody, and was enjoying the more off-the-beaten track choices. But it's a brand new day ...

    John
    How about What's New?
    White belt
    My Youtube

  19. #118

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    isnt this a moot question?

    i mean who doesn't alter the 9ths and 5ths of Dominant chords ?
    nobody right ?

    someone can come along later a say that was
    mm from a half step up ...

    doesnt matter does it ?
    we all play those sounds don't we ?

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    isnt this a moot question?

    i mean who doesn't alter the 9ths and 5ths of Dominant chords ?
    nobody right ?

    someone can come along later a say that was
    mm from a half step up ...

    doesnt matter does it ?
    we all play those sounds don't we ?
    Stop spoiling our fun.

    Yeah I agree completely, but for me it’s very much a not a moot question.

    It is vis a vis my own playing - but the question from my point of view has always been pedagogical. Is it helpful to the student to theorise in this way?

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Stop spoiling our fun.

    Yeah I agree completely, but for me it’s very much a not a moot question.

    It is vis a vis my own playing - but the question from my point of view has always been pedagogical. Is it helpful to the student to theorise in this way?
    oh ok , got it ,
    ok to answer in terms of learning
    from my own experience I was taught mm and its modes
    but the sound didn't sink in to my ears .....

    what helped me was
    Playing around with the various sound individually

    eg in C
    over the G7 trying out lines
    that lent on the Ab note individually

    ive even heard Ab mm described as. Edit edit
    "a Gbmaj scale with a raised tonic"
    Hmm , not much use .....to me

  22. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    It's a good idea, but I simply do not hear the MM pool of notes against altered chords. I absolutely hear 11 possible tones against any Dominant chord, and that's what comes out in my scats. Mind you, I do tend to now "hear" ideas along the lines of those that I like to play ...
    Interesting. If I relax and just babble out the easiest stream of tadadada's, I'd consider that the most natural thing to come out is a scale. And in minor 2-5-1, it very often tends to be a part of the mM. But when aiming at the #7, it's different... then yeah, its rather the altered tension note. tis mental

  23. #122

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    If one is going to organize their thinking around note content and possible harmonic implications as opposed to say emotions or spiritual vision, there are multiple angles
    to approach this. Generally I have found that each angle will have certain advantages
    as well as limitations. None of them automatically hand us the keys to the land of
    musical mastery on their own. There remains many other issues still to be addressed.

    I absolutely hear 11 possible tones against any Dominant chord
    One of the limitations of a modal approach is that it creates an illusion that notes
    outside of the collection are unavailable for use. Thinking from a chord function
    perspective allows for a freer mixing and matching of intervals as we see fit.

    but the question from my point of view has always been pedagogical.
    Good question Christian. How do you pedagogically choose to address this
    in your teaching practice?

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    How about What's New?
    That's a cool tune. I could do that.

    John

  25. #124

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    John Stowell, all melodic minor, yikes...

    30 years ago when I studied for 2 years privately with Mark Levine he would have me play standards like Take The A Train and apply a melodic minor mode to every single chord in the form. He was especially good at block chording in MM. It became easy after a while to effortlessly play a MM mode on any chord. I drilled with flash cards at home, 7 cards for each of the 12 keys. Would mix them up randomly and then sight read them, also had all the wholetone scale and diminished/V7b9 chords as cards too. It worked. I never have to think about it now days, it’s automatic.
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989. I also studied under Barry Harris, Joe Henderson, Art Lande, and Mark Isham.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    If one is going to organize their thinking around note content and possible harmonic implications as opposed to say emotions or spiritual vision, there are multiple angles
    to approach this. Generally I have found that each angle will have certain advantages
    as well as limitations. None of them automatically hand us the keys to the land of
    musical mastery on their own. There remains many other issues still to be addressed.



    One of the limitations of a modal approach is that it creates an illusion that notes
    outside of the collection are unavailable for use. Thinking from a chord function
    perspective allows for a freer mixing and matching of intervals as we see fit.



    Good question Christian. How do you pedagogically choose to address this
    in your teaching practice?
    Well it’s changing all the time. At the moment I kind of don’t. I don’t find it necessary to discuss. I talk far more about rhythm .

    The main thing I teach is to link a dominant/mixo scale device (scale, arp etc) to a target chord (major or minor usually) via some sort of chromaticism.

    So idiomatically, the common ways to do that are

    - to play a chromatic line possibly with other notes/ghost notes to make it more interesting rhythmically, so E Eb D say on G7 C but maybe change it to E G Eb D or something

    - to use a diminished arpeggio to connect. There’s to main connections. In C - Bo7 to C and Co7 to C.

    - to use a tritone sub to connect. So this could be a scale (we’ll keep it mix) or an arp. Abm or Abm6 on C is a common choice. But you could use any of the arps from the scale of course - such as Bmaj7 on G7 which might be ‘outside’ from a CST perspective, but from a dynamic point of view makes for a powerful resolution and is actually quite an obvious choice. Obviously super guitaristic too.*

    So at no point am I taking about vertical harmony when dealing with altered dominants. It’s all about connection into the target. Voiceleading. So the altered scale, while it’s an effective way of making a connection in a target chord is actually less ‘pregnant’ with possibilities than Db mix.

    Between them Dbmix and C6/9 contain the whole chromatic gamut. So it’s the most efficient type of cadence. But altered also works well.

    But this can all be done perfectly well with just the dominant/mix scale. This is I think a good thing because we can spend some time learning how to construct really good sounding lines in that scale. Dom scale is brilliant. It also works well for modal and funky stuff.

    In terms of more static dominant chords, we can make the conversion to minor and play minor language on Dom chords (once we develop minor playing). Dm on G7, say. As attractive minor key lines use the major seventh, and you might end up playing a lot of, say, the A triad in Dm on G7, some of these lines can be said to access the Lydian dominant sound, but that’s really not how I teach it.

    Well then link them into the next chord around the second half of the last bar.

    (In the bridge of rhythm tunes, say, the dominants stick around long enough to be thought their own thing. There’s evidence jazz musicians have always thought of progressions like these as being a series of key centres rather than related to a central key.)

    The aim is to work on melody that expresses chordal movement within a tonal region and create dynamic resolutions to target chords (that helps with swing) not relate everything to underlying chord symbols.

    * players have been using ‘outside’ ideas since before modern jazz theory decided they were outside.

  27. #126

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    Tl;dr I try to teach Barry harris

    Sometimes I downplay certain aspects (like added note scales) to get started.

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    John Stowell, all melodic minor, yikes...

    30 years ago when I studied for 2 years privately with Mark Levine he would have me play standards like Take The A Train and apply a melodic minor mode to every single chord in the form. He was especially good at block chording in MM. It became easy after a while to effortlessly play a MM mode on any chord. I drilled with flash cards at home, 7 cards for each of the 12 keys. Would mix them up randomly and then sight read them, also had all the wholetone scale and diminished/V7b9 chords as cards too. It worked. I never have to think about it now days, it’s automatic.
    scuse my ignorance!
    which mm did you play on the tonic (say C) ?

  29. #128

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    Solo guitar study group for What's New here's the What's New thread. To make this on topic, you can use melodic minor or not
    White belt
    My Youtube

  30. #129

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    which mm did you play on the tonic (say C) ?
    C major is definitely the starting reference but..........

    You could use notes from Ab mm for a G7alt passing chord effect (V7 of I)

    You could use notes from F mm for a Bb13(#11) passing chord effect
    (backdoor dominant)

    You can also use A mm for a temporary brightening of tonic major with Cma9(#11).
    Similar to how lydian is sometimes used.

    Probably wouldn't do any of this on a country and western ballad.
    Last edited by bako; 07-23-2019 at 09:56 AM.

  31. #130

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    Christian,

    Thanks for such a comprehensive answer.
    Do you teach basic major and minor scale harmonizations as a starting
    reference for key centers and progression labeling or is there another
    approach to cover that stuff as well?

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    Christian,

    Thanks for such a comprehensive answer.
    Do you teach basic major and minor scale harmonizations as a starting
    reference for key centers and progression labeling or is there another
    approach to cover that stuff as well?
    Sure - in theory, but actually I don’t often have to teach that stuff as most of my students seem to know it already!

    I think minor harmony is a little less familiar to most.

    I teach Roman numeral stuff to general guitar beginners ASAP as it’s handy.

    In terms of chords within the key - I just go with basic functions, major, minor, dominant. You could harmonise a scale a number of different ways based on that.

    But it can’t be overstated that many students know theory far in advance of their actual playing. My job in general seems to be to put it together and get students playing tunes and language, picking up stuff by ear, going more into the right brain stuff.

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    with Mark Levine he would have me play standards like Take The A Train and apply a melodic minor mode to every single chord in the form.
    which mm did you play on the first chord of A train ?

  34. #133

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    Quotes from my research I thought people might enjoy. May relate to melodic minor, CST and the notorious 'Berklee funk' haha... I particularly love the first sentence.

    "Music education is not problematic until it surfaces in schools and colleges, until it becomes formal, institutionalised. If we want to strum a guitar, get into the plot of a Wagner opera, play a sitar or sing in a chorus, then finding a teacher, reading a book or joining a performing group may be all we need to do. There is no need to form a curriculum committee, produce a rationale or declare a list of objectives. The informal music student can copy jazz riffs from recordings, ask friends about fingering or chord patterns, learn by imitation – ‘sitting next to Nelly’ – or widen musical experience by watching television, listening to the radio or exploring record shops. Formal instruction may not be necessary, though for some these formal systems may be crucial points of access."

    "More recently, and in an attempt to recognise the reality of this music ‘out there’, elements of popular music have indeed entered the formal education scene. But in order to make itself respectable and to become appropriately institutionalised, popular music has to be modified, abstracted and analysed to fit into classrooms, timetables and the aims of music education. The impact of the loudness level is reduced, dancing is impractical and the socio-cultural context is shorn away. During this reductive process the activity often becomes what Ross calls ‘pseudo music’."

    Swanwick, Keith. Teaching Music Musically (Classic Edition) (Routledge Education Classic Edition Series) (p. 33). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.

    Good book.

  35. #134

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    Well, I’m off to play some pseudo music

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well, I’m off to play some pseudo music
    Best regards, k