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Originally Posted by buduranus2
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06-11-2019 12:55 PM
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Pauln, are you talking about George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept?
I'll go back to my original point--you need to hear the notes, not the scales.
I'm reposting this video here, I think I had it in the Performance Ear Training Journal:
Greg Fishman, by the way, is the real deal. If you REALLY want some vocabulary, he has Hip Licks vol. 1 & 2 on his website. That's not the point.
The point is that you learn how the unique colors of the 7#11 chord sound over the basic triad--one at a time. Jordan Clemons is all about this method of learning new colors/ sounds. Greg Fishman is all about "tasting" these sounds. I'm on the same wavelength--but a little broader. I like to think of these colors operating on the home key. That way, I know exactly how my ear wants to resolve back to the home key.
For that A7#11 to Abmin6--I would pedal an Ab (and maybe a B natural) WHILE I play A7#11 sounds when I'm practicing in the woodshed (usually on the piano--at first, at least). Chords don't exist in a vacuum. Many of us already understand functional harmonic analysis, like how we analyze all of Autumn Leaves in Gm. Yet when we start our line studies, our melodic concepts, we automatically go back to an isolated chord by chord mentality. I think this needs to be seriously revamped, from the ground up. But, I'm an odd bird.
That's how I study ear training. All sound operates in the broadest sonic context--the sound of the key. You build all harmony off the sound of the Key. Anything that operates outside of the key does so to create beautiful tension and release--movement. I think Coleman Hawkins said something along the lines of "I play harmonic movement, not chords".
Let me go in even further. All sound operates within the sound of the key and the pulse of the tune. Notes and scales don't mean shite if you don't know how to use them in respect to the pulse. What happens when I place the #11 on the downbeat (I'm talking chord tones, not key tones--because this might resonate more)? What happens when I place the #11 on the "and" of 1? Where, in the measure, in the phrase, do I resolve my color tones (or altered tones)? How does this rhythmic placement of these altered notes effect the tension of my line? How does the rhythmic placement of my core chord tones effect the resolution of my line? How do I punctuate my line--where do I leave space? That's swing, bebop, hardbop, and beyond. Where we place the notes in time (pulse?) takes primacy over scales.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Lot of theory flying around here. Nothing wrong with that, but...
Just listen to what players do. That'll put everything together, can't recommend it enough really.
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Common dominant chords that tend to feature a #11
IV7 --> relates to I minor
II7 --> relates to VI minor
bVI7 --> relates to bIII minor (that's an interesting one)
bVII7 --> relates IV minor
BTW usually the #11 is featured because it is a diatonic tone - either to the major or related minor keys. This seems to not get mentioned very much...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Irez87Originally Posted by Irez87
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Ugh, Chris '77 you're getting wrapped up in this deep theory stuff too. Let's back up, and post actual tunes where there's a secondary dominant that functions as a true #11 harmony. I agree
that in A Train, that IIdom7 is usually played with a whole tone--but I sometimes play it as a #11. Days of Wine and Roses comes to mind as well, but that's a #11 with a different function. I could post some examples from my Greg Fishman book, but I just played through some and he doesn't specify how they resolve (which is a huge part of making these licks work, at least functional harmony wise--I hate that term)
So...
A Train (maybe)
Days of Wine and Roses
Lady Bird
So we could all pick one tune that has clear dominant #11 harmony, isolate the harmonic phrase (not the chord, the phrase), and post recorded examples of what each of us would play using those materials. Ragman almost did that with his post--I liked that he played something instead of rambling like I usually doLast edited by Irez87; 06-11-2019 at 05:32 PM.
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Unfortunately when learning Music Language we get caught up in the technical aspects a bit too much. For me being mostly self taught, I look at Lydian Dominant as being part of Melodic Minor.
By that I mean it comes from the Melodic Minor parent scale. So I have different arpeggios like a Min9/Maj7 that I've committed to memorize throughput the entire 12 fret fingerboard. i.e. C13#11 would be Gmin9/maj7 arpeggio
Guitarist Scott Henderson has some lessons on how to use this as well as other arpeggios in interesting ways. Do a Google search.
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so, no takers on the recorded examples?
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Originally Posted by Irez87
This isn't really a lydian-dominant-from-melodic-minor demo, but it is a good demo of the fact that you really need only the maj 3, #11 and b7 to get the "lydian dominant" sound. If you hang for a few minutes till he gets to the ensemble demo, you'll hear him throw a variety of color tones into the "vanilla dominant" to great effect.
Though he does make a point of incorporating his instructional licks into the demo performances, you'll also hear that he improvises very freely and fluidly. Having some memorized vocabulary in your ears and under your fingers lets you avoid having to think too much, freeing you to express yourself. Yet, you don't want to be limited to only certain licks.
So I think you want to approach this from two directions:
- get the "lydian dominant sound" into your mind's ear, and learn a lot of ways to find that sound (see ragman's video for an excellent jumpstart)
- get some good-sounding licks in that vein memorized cold, so that you can then use them as seeds for your own melodic ideas. I think that's what you are trying to do by asking for some recorded examples, and that's a great idea.
Once you get the theory, the sound and some licks under your belt, your own lydian dominant ideas will grow organically.
SJ
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Originally Posted by jads57
As a result I play Melodic Minor and its modes like the Altered Scale all the time but never think of them as such; I think of those sounds as modes of Lydian Dominant.
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Originally Posted by buduranus2
If that’s the type of music you want to play I would focus on the minor on dominant approach as it’s the ways those guys seem to think.
For the LD sound itself I think you have to check out more recent players who grew up with chord scales.
But you don’t have to learn about LD to be a strong Blue Note style player.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
The #4 is in the melody
Chord lasts for four bars
Tune represented by entire history of jazz
A genuine non resolving dominant
I think the 7#11 in DWR is a passing chord - I would probably ignore it for the purposes of blowing .Last edited by christianm77; 06-12-2019 at 05:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Also bearing in mind that it's not what one 'does over a chord' that matters so much as the transitioning between one chord and another...
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Conceptually I would stake money on the ‘minor on dominant’ connection (i.e. ii on V) being the source of any #11 sounds. You can hear this in Django, Charlie Christian etc. If you play the major seven on the minor, you obviously get #4 on the dominant.
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Whole tone is common in Bud Powell
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Originally Posted by christianm77
but Cherokee is very fast so maybe no one noticed
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Originally Posted by ragman1
But I remember Barry Harris saying you could choose whether or not the play the #11 in Cherokee.
But players got up to all sorts of stuff. Even pianists playing a 9 in one hand a b9 over it.
Jazz wasn’t the study of chord symbols back then.... and I think bop was more interested in the changes, treating each chord a bit more independently than before. Swing players often took a more key centric, generalised approach on the changes which would actually encourage some more of those 7#11s I guess...
I suppose bVII7#11 is the most common 7#11 sound in jazz.... it’s so closely related to IVm(maj7) that gives a good way into those sounds. You can hear plenty of examples of this sound in the swing era even...
On reflection I guess that was what Irez was talking about with respect to Days of Guns and Roses....
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There’s a good version by the Nikelson trio (Lage Lund on guitar)
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Well, that was a lotta videos.
I went through a few versions of A Train coz the 7b5 has two bars and you don't have to wait for it. Most play WT, a few ignore it. Probably doesn't matter.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I don't know if it's just a more modern take, but he's more often talking about doing the opposite: using A7#11- Lydian dominant to target Dm- Dorian or vice versa. As opposed to playing "D melodic minor" over A7.
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Re other posts about tempo and easier to hear, more modern Lydian dominant sounds etc, Jeff's recommendation of Christmas time is hear is a good one. Slow, lots of LD opportunities over multiple chord often, and easy to hear with lots of #11 melody notes as true accented chord tones.
If you want to woodshed more Lydian Dom over something like A train, for sure sub the bII7#11 for V, just to get more reps on it one fret away from you're II7.
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Originally Posted by buduranus2
Emphasise the major seventh and you have LD, use the minor and you have a standard dominant sound.
Obviously D Lyd Dom = A melodic minor, but solo lines aren’t usually that obviously chord scaley unless they are played by Berklee grads like Lage Lund ;-)
Even b6 sounds good in context.
Check the music.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
That’s the way he thinks harmonically but he plays quite old school language.
He has his own way of talking about what I just posted above. I think we think quite similarly, I just tend to convert everything to the simplest scale description because I find it easier to deal with. I reckon Reg played the way he does before he went to Berklee and retroactively analysed and developed his approach after taking CST classes.
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