There Will Never Be Another You - Improvisational Elaboration

[lawson-stone]

I've had an idea mulling in my head for a long time that I have decided to start putting a little time into. In almost any thread on this forum, or in almost any conversation among jazz players about improvisation, someone will state very strongly that "the melody" of the standard one is playing is vital to good improvisation. Then we usually debate whether that's true, the whole nine yards.

I've done a lot of different things to learn to improvise, but honestly I've never tried to use the melody of a tune as the basis for improvisation. Since my improvisation is not exactly an exemplary model of "how it's done" I think I need to try my hand at moving from playing the melody, to playing a greatly ornamented and elaborated melody, to spinning improvisational ideas off the melody. I've never done this before, and it just seems like one if those things that certainly will do me no harm, and probably would do a lot of good.

So I"m going to take "There Will Never Be Another You" as my start. I can play the melody easily enough, and I can comp for it, and can even do a chord-melody of the tune. But for me chord-melody becomes a crutch. So I want to focus on melodic invention using TWNBAY as my basis.

I hope to post a series of clips starting with simply trying to play the melody with a backing track, really nicely, with some ornamentation and such. Then I hope to move increasingly in an improvisational direction.

If by any chance you, kind reader, play this tune and can show me how you dress up the melody, use the melody for improvisation, etc. I'd love to see and hear you do it.

I'm actually NOT interested in hearing how the masters do it. They are immortal and for me it's like watching Superman stop a bullet. I do what he does, I end up dead. No, I want to hear what players who are somewhere along the learning curve that I can related to might do with this tune.

So my focus is the MELODY. How might one elaborate on it? Ornament it? Phrase it? Render it strange and alien, only to bring it back as an old friend. How might it's ideas lead to soloing inspirations?

So... with all the optimism of the people who christened the Titanic, I hope I won't just smash into an iceberg and sink.

[grahambop]

I try and do this sometimes as I think it’s a good idea, and it helps create some fresh approaches when I feel I’m just playing the same old lines over and over.

I don’t really have a system for it, I just sort of hear the melody in my head and simultaneously try to play something that refers to it a bit. Either by playing phrases which keep to the same rhythms as the melody, or by using some of the main notes of the melody to hang my lines on, as it were. But it’s done more by instinct than anything else.

I find it tends to produce ideas which are more like ‘motifs’ i.e. a bit Jim Hall-like, gets me away from playing endless 8th-note bop lines.

[Irez87]

You know what?

I think, as amateur guitarists as a whole, we don't spend enough time learning the melody.

I've been working on the melody for Sophisticated Lady for a month with my mentor, and I'm still not done.

I thought this work would be boring. I mean, it's jazz, I wanna improvise!

But if you really get under the skin of the melody and own it like you're gonna play it at Carnegie Hall...

Well, that's actually a whole lot of fun!

And when you can really make that melody sing, than ornament it with elaboration.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I've never committed this much time to learning a melody, and it's not even a Bird head. But, wow, is it worth it!

I just wanted to share my own "aha moment" with learning tunes.

[cosmic gumbo]

It's a great approach to improvisation.

[docsteve]

I know you said „Don‘t mention the heavyweights“, but I just listened to Trane doing Body and Soul and that‘s a premium example of improvising around the melody.

IMHO sax players as a whole are great at it.


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[lawson-stone]

You know what?

I think, as amateur guitarists as a whole, we don't spend enough time learning the melody.

I've been working on the melody for Sophisticated Lady for a month with my mentor, and I'm still not done.

I thought this work would be boring. I mean, it's jazz, I wanna improvise!

But if you really get under the skin of the melody and own it like you're gonna play it at Carnegie Hall...

Well, that's actually a whole lot of fun!

And when you can really make that melody sing, than ornament it with elaboration.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I've never committed this much time to learning a melody, and it's not even a Bird head. But, wow, is it worth it!

I just wanted to share my own "aha moment" with learning tunes.

Thanks for that. I do disagree with folks who attach some kind of almost moral superiority to the melody, but then again, the composer was likely a very fine songwriter, with a very good feel for harmony, rhythm, phrasing, and also if it's a standard, and very popular, obviously that songwriter had an ear for future listeners. Obviously that melody is something worth paying serious attention to.

Also, I think using the melody as a point of departure for improvising seems like a way to prevent solos from sounding the same, and listeners can connect the solo to the tune better, all of which is good.

So... I"m long overdue for this. I have learned chord-melody arrangements, but I have not really given much attention to approaching the melody in a line-oriented way.

[lawson-stone]

I know you said „Don‘t mention the heavyweights“, but I just listened to Trane doing Body and Soul and that‘s a premium example of improvising around the melody.

IMHO sax players as a whole are great at it.


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Folks posting here can, of course, post anything they want. I'm the OP, not the King of the Thread. My main hesitation is that it's way easier to just post a link to a great player rather than share some of one's own thoughts and ideas, even efforts, on the same project. In the world of research, it's like answering a question by just dumping bibliography on it rather than doing research on one's own.

So I won't whine about folks posting great players on the tune. I just won't respond to those. Others might like them, but I can find them too. I have Google. I have a greater interest in what the struggling mortals on this forum are doing. Fellow travelers on the journey and all that.

[Irez87]

Does it has to be a post of There Will Never be Another You?

Or could I post another standard?

I know "There Will Never be Another You", but only superficially.

I really like this idea for a thread, lawson-stone!

[ragman1]

It's an interesting question. I don't really use the melody for improv either. I might use it as a general guide to know when to hit a high spot at about the same place as the melody because that'll provoke some sort of recognition in the listener. Otherwise I don't really care.

However, that doesn't mean the improv goes all over the place necessarily. It's as though you've got the tune in your head but you're not actually playing it, if that makes sense. The improv has to reflect the spirit of the tune without actually imitating it. Probably the rhythmic cadences will be much the same, although that may not be so either.

If I do use the melody, which is occasionally advantageous, it'll just be an embellishment of it - i.e. the tune with some twiddles and fills in the spaces. But I don't really consider that to be improvisation as such. In fact, it's not really.

So really an improv for me is more or less a leap into the unknown every time. I think that's the whole point of it. It's also much more fun because it's slightly different every time.

[Irez87]

Can we establish one principle to your thread, lawson-stone?

You said you want to see and hear people demonstrate this melodic-centric study as you post your progress as well.

Once I get settled in Seattle, I'll post actual videos of me playing--I'll have to review TWNBAY, but it's a great tune to really learn--and a great melody as well.

Enough babble, I've been babbling too much on the forum lately

[matt.guitarteacher]

Very cool, Lawson. I've never been able to think fast enough to do this the way I always assumed it was probably done, but in the last couple of years I really think about this kind of thing differently. I have found that if you can abstract the rhythm of the melody somewhat and create more space, it frees up a lot of things and also really helps with creativity and inspiration. With a tune like this one, you can basically play the quarter note melody as all eighths.

A good starting point is: 4 eighths starting on beat 2 of each measure. This is pretty easy to hear but heavily abstracts the melody in a cool way which sparks a lot of creativity, but most of all, it creates enough space to actually embellish things.

I always wondered how Joe pass fit all of the notes in . More than anything, I now think it's more that he could organize anything rhythmically before and after-the-fact to make sense, even if he ended up on a different beat etc. It's really powerful thing to learn.

You can do the same thing with quarter note triplets when you're talking about an all-quarter-note melody as well. It creates a little space but not quite as much. It's also a little harder to hear on the faster tune like this but can be cool.

I'm a lot better with the rhythmic development of the melody than with the fills. Might be a good project for me as well, though I don't have a lot of time at the end of the semester right know. I could probably post some basic melodic stuff tomorrow, but I'm behind deadline on that other thread.

Anyway, abstracting the rhythm slightly is a huge help IMO.

[PMB]

I'm surprised that no one yet has mentioned the lyrics. The first stage in your venture would surely be to just play the melody itself convincingly. All the old school guys, especially horn players like Lester Young and Ben Webster stressed the importance of knowing the lyrics.

Too often, we hear instrumentalists playing heads strictly as written from a lead sheet and it can sound stiff. There's a rhythmic implication built into the lyric's syllables that's a very useful jumping off point for putting the melody across in a convincing manner.

Example 1 shows the opening phrase of There Will Never Be Another You as it usually appears in RB format. I can't think of any recording where the singer or instrumentalist plays those opening seven quarter notes verbatim. In fact, I find it more natural to try the reverse approach as illustrated in Example 2: syncopated in the first main bar followed by straight quarter notes in bar 2. Example 3 takes this syncopation a step further with the entry delayed until the 'and' of one in the first main bar. Singers, in particular will often stress or elongate certain words to bring out a less obvious meaning behind the lyric. For instance, notice how the natural stress on the word 'will' in Example 2 has been transferred to 'many' in Example 3.

[Jazzstdnt]

The first step it seems to me is minimal variation.

That is, play the melody but alter it's rhythm. Almost like Dexter plays the head to this tune.
Then decorate it/embellish it a bit.


Check this out. Getz kept it simple and oh so close to the melody.

Or this, solo starts at 2:35

[Irez87]

My favorite vocal version, I want to phrase the melody like him:

[ragman1]

Lawson -

Obviously we missed about providing demos and not fave versions... so here's a demo. At first I thought you were doing it as a chord melody but I see not. Apparently not anyway.

I did it like this. First, I've never played it before. I've heard it, obviously, but not played it. So first I just played the tune straight to put it under the fingers.

Then I syncopated it and put in fills etc so it's more acceptable for listening. I thought a lot of those chords suited a 13b9 sound so I did that a bit. That's the first one.

Then I embellished that version. It's still pretty well the tune at this point.

Then I played around the harmony based on where the actual tune started and stopped (the actual notes - i.e. first four bars low C to low F). I also kept the basic phrases of the tune.

Then I used a lot of melodic minor stuff based again on the chords, basically keeping in the range of the tune, low, medium or high. By this time, of course, the ear is still going to hear TWNBAY no matter what.

I thought at the end you might like to hear what happened when I played the second embellished melody over the first straight one. You can hear how the two pretty well follow each other. Quite interesting.

Playing off the melody isn't my normal thing so sorry if it's not brilliant but you did say no famous people :-)

[lawson-stone]

Does it has to be a post of There Will Never be Another You?

Or could I post another standard?

I know "There Will Never be Another You", but only superficially.

I really like this idea for a thread, lawson-stone!

Again, I'm the OP not the King of The Thread. People can post whatever they want. For learning I am someone who needs to focus, but sure, post something that you think is helpful. It might help other readers of the thread too. I'm especially interested in this tune, but I won't complain about others.

[lawson-stone]

The first step it seems to me is minimal variation.

That is, play the melody but alter it's rhythm. Almost like Dexter plays the head to this tune.
Then decorate it/embellish it a bit.


Check this out. Getz kept it simple and oh so close to the melody.

Or this, solo starts at 2:35

Absolutely amazing how someone could post a reply that is exactly, 100%, the total OPPOSITE of what I asked for. Thanks a lot Fumblefingers. Threadbuster extraodinaire.

[lawson-stone]

Lawson -

Obviously we missed about providing demos and not fave versions... so here's a demo. At first I thought you were doing it as a chord melody but I see not. Apparently not anyway.

I did it like this. First, I've never played it before. I've heard it, obviously, but not played it. So first I just played the tune straight to put it under the fingers.

Then I syncopated it and put in fills etc so it's more acceptable for listening. I thought a lot of those chords suited a 13b9 sound so I did that a bit. That's the first one.

Then I embellished that version. It's still pretty well the tune at this point.

Then I played around the harmony based on where the actual tune started and stopped. I also kept the basic phrases of the tune.

Then I used a lot of melodic minor stuff based again on the chords, basically keeping in the range of the tune, low, medium or high. By this time, of course, the ear is still going to hear TWNBAY no matter what.

I thought at the end you might like to hear what happened when I played the second embellished melody over the first straight one. You can hear how the two pretty well follow each other. Quite interesting.

Playing off the melody isn't my normal thing so sorry if it's not brilliant but you did say no famous people :-)

Holy Cow! That is EXACTLY the kind of working through the tune I was hoping to hear. So much in that 5 minutes for me to think about and work on. It's all stuff that is within my ability, but that I haven't thought to try or play.

I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread, and you've delivered the goods. I enjoyed listening, and will re-listen to think about what you're doing with respect to chord tones, shapes, etc.

Thanks again!

[lawson-stone]

I'm surprised that no one yet has mentioned the lyrics. The first stage in your venture would surely be to just play the melody itself convincingly. All the old school guys, especially horn players like Lester Young and Ben Webster stressed the importance of knowing the lyrics.

Too often, we hear instrumentalists playing heads strictly as written from a lead sheet and it can sound stiff. There's a rhythmic implication built into the lyric's syllables that's a very useful jumping off point for putting the melody across in a convincing manner.

Example 1 shows the opening phrase of There Will Never Be Another You as it usually appears in RB format. I can't think of any recording where the singer or instrumentalist plays those opening seven quarter notes verbatim. In fact, I find it more natural to try the reverse approach as illustrated in Example 2: syncopated in the first main bar followed by straight quarter notes in bar 2. Example 3 takes this syncopation a step further with the entry delayed until the 'and' of one in the first main bar. Singers, in particular will often stress or elongate certain words to bring out a less obvious meaning behind the lyric. For instance, notice how the natural stress on the word 'will' in Example 2 has been transferred to 'many' in Example 3.

Thanks for that. YEs, one thing I'm trying to do is just work on phrasing the melody. For some reason your Example 3 made me think of Chet Baker!

Thanks for taking time to notate and share ideas. I appreciate it. Helps a LOT.

[Jazzstdnt]

Absolutely amazing how someone could post a reply that is exactly, 100%, the total OPPOSITE of what I asked for. Thanks a lot Fumblefingers. Threadbuster extraodinaire.

Well I thought you weren't king of the thread and other tunes were OK. Regardless, they're simply great examples of improv that is an elaboration of the melody, and are classic recordings and performances, etc. (Along with my reference to Dexter playing the head of course). Also, they are not mind bendingly difficult. All that stuff about them being masters (as something to avoid) is an unnecessary diversion. A great model is what's needed. So... you're welcome...

[grahambop]

Thanks for that. YEs, one thing I'm trying to do is just work on phrasing the melody. For some reason your Example 3 made me think of Chet Baker!

Thanks for taking time to notate and share ideas. I appreciate it. Helps a LOT.

Chet Baker was gifted at slightly re-phrasing any melody to make it more hip and swinging. He is always one of the first people I listen to when trying to get a tune into my brain.

[Tal_175]

Here is an excellent clinic on the subject:

[grahambop]

Chet Baker was gifted at slightly re-phrasing any melody to make it more hip and swinging. He is always one of the first people I listen to when trying to get a tune into my brain.

I know you didn’t want examples from the ‘masters’, but honestly, Chet Baker’s first solo here (I mean right at the beginning of the track) is one of the best examples I have ever heard of someone re-working the melody to create a solo. Just listening to this a few times should give lots of ideas.

[hohoho]

Interesting thread. Here's a take from a few years back. I also uploaded a few others from the same date... Backing track from Bergonzi Improv Series Volume 4 Melodic Rhythms.

[lawson-stone]

I know you didn’t want examples from the ‘masters’, but honestly, Chet Baker’s first solo here (I mean right at the beginning of the track) is one of the best examples I have ever heard of someone re-working the melody to create a solo. Just listening to this a few times should give lots of ideas.

Graham-naturally when it's you, I make the "grahambop" exception! If you told me dumpster-diving would help my soloing, I'd do it.