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I found part of a 1958 interview with Barney Kessel in Metronome, (Volume 75, 1958, p95), in which Kessel describes Christian's playing as horn-like:
Barney, a constant poll winner, was gracious enough to answer our questions, frankly, and at great length. An interview by mail is hardly the best kind of interview, but, when an interviewee takes the trouble Barney obviously has, it makes such an interview extremely provocative and revealing. We think you'll find Barney's comments highly candid and interesting.
Q: We've often heard of the importance Charlie Christian has played in the evolution of modern jazz guitar playing. What, specifically, has he done?
A: Many people believe that Charlie Christian was the first man to play an amplified guitar; others, that he was the first to play horn-like jazz. (Jazz which was styled close to patterns being played by such musicians as Eldridge, Hawkins, Goodman, Chu Berry, Berrigan etc., rather than following along in the more guitaristic approach such as demonstrated by Carl Kress, Dick McDonough, George Van Eps, Allen Reuss, and Eddie Lang).Actually, both beliefs are incorrect; however, Christian was the first guitarist to play horn-like jazz not only well enough to play in the company of first-rate horn players, but was inventive to such a degree as to be a model for many horn players as well as guitarists.
Up until Christian's time, the guitarists who played jazz lines like a horn rather than guitaristically, were still not up to playing as soloists with the horn players. Charlie Christian combined his natural creative talent with influences of horn players of his day (of which, Lester Young was the dominant one), and blazed a trail for every guitarist in jazz, who has followed after him.
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03-28-2019 06:18 PM
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For me the opposite of horn-like is piano-like.
Single notes on piano tend to have a sharp attack and decay pretty quickly. You can't bend them or apply vibrato. They have some natural resonance, but are relatively dry.
Some guitarists play more like that than others. Strings of eighth notes strike me like that, particularly played straight. Joe Pass and Pat Martino might be considered in that light, at least at times.
Other guitarists go in a completely different direction. Consider, for example, Santana. I don't think anybody would think of his lines as piano-like. The sustain, the swells, the attenuated attack, the grit and the soaring lines remind me more of a saxophone. Not a perfect comparison, but in that direction. Scofield may be another. Metheny, to me, is neither. Wes somewhere in between.
I find a difference between trumpet and saxophone that I've been meaning to post about. I play in some horn bands and I hear a lot of good horn players. Mostly pros, but not stars. I find that the saxophonists are more likely to be running obvious broken scales than the trumpeters. Why is that? The trumpeters I know, for example, don't typically start a solo with a scale or arp. More likely it's a handful of neighboring notes played melodically without obvious scale or arp structure. Is this typical? My imagination? Something about the three valve thing?
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Perhaps the fat and airy tones we get from archtops with neck humbucker pickups is also more horn like than the bright and cutting rock'n roll lead sounds of single coil bridge pickups of solid body guitars.
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Doug Raney said something like that i.e. to get a sound more like a tenor sax. It's in one of those videos featuring him on youtube.
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Originally Posted by JCat
Actually that reminds me, Robben Ford said he was trying to sound like Tenor Sax.
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Yeah I think this goes back to Charlie Christian who was more influenced by Lester Young than any guitar player..
Most of the US swing era guys were ex banjo players playing chord solos. Charlie didn’t come from that. He killed that tradition stone dead.
In this sense every single note soloist on electric is horn like by default because we all descend from Charlie, not Alan Reuss. Obviously some more so than others.
About the same time Van Eps was developing his lap piano style.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Charlie was playing a single coil through a cranked amp
Come to think of it so was Grant Green
You might be on to something
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The most natural instrument in the world is the human voice, horns imitate a voice by nature of relying on the act of breathing to make a sound. A voice is “forced” to make decisions about where to breath, and those minute pauses sound natural and human to us because we all face the same “limitations” with our voices and lungs. Any istrument not dependent on this act of breathing can easily lack phrasing.
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I agree, I think its about phrasing, and like a trumpet.
I think that the guitar is better suited to trumpet style phrasing than sax. (Unless you're Alan Holdsworth, but how many Alan Holdsworth's are there?).
I saw a noted player last night who does NOT "take a breath" very often. That approach to soloing can/did result in listener fatigue, at times. It can be a bit like listening to a motor mouth who won't shut up. At times.
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Here is Dexter Gordon sounding like a horn-player and Philip Catherine sounding like a guitar-player. I.e. each pulls out a sound unique to their instruments (with Philip using electronics).
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I think it has a lot to do with how you articulate a note.
The horn player can play staccato or legato. He can swell a note, vibrate it, bend it, change volume as it sustains. With circular breathing he can hold it indefinitely. Just about any way a note can speak. All kinds of nuance.
So, to me, horn-like is when the guitarist finds ways to do those things. Non horn-like is a style where the notes are played straight without this kind of articulation. Of course, horns can do things that are horn-like per my definition, so the definitions aren't precise.
But, I think that's the basic idea. I think CC was considered horn-like because he played single lines with some sustain (from that amp being cranked a bit). As the guitar technology developed, more articulation became progressively easier.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
But there are other sax players that do translate well - Dexter Gordon for instance. And Lester gave us much of the stuff on guitar that everyone takes for granted either direct or through the lens of Charlie Christian.
But maybe - I have heard trumpeters say the guitar lines translate well (and vice versa from those who play both) which I think is interesting.
To be absolutely honest I've not transcribed as many trumpeters as sax players which is a shame, because I do like good trumpet.
But interestingly - I think excepting possibly Metheny who started on trumpet, I've not heard to many guitarists say they have been influenced by trumpet though. Usually it's sax if it's a horn. Maybe you know some examples?
I saw a noted player last night who does NOT "take a breath" very often. That approach to soloing can/did result in listener fatigue, at times. It can be a bit like listening to a motor mouth who won't shut up. At times.
I was listening to Clifford Brown today, and noticed the sheer amount of dynamics in his 8th lines, which mean they don't like over playing even on a ballad like April in Paris. Most guitarists around today don't use dynamics and tend to play strings of 8th notes.
That said, Pat Martino for one manages to make it work, because while he is super even, his timing and the actual shape of his lines create a sense of space and rhythmic accent. Once I heard that, his playing became compelling to me. Although he leaves more gaps, I feel the same way about Mike Stern.
Most players who do the endless 8th notes thing, do not.
The trick is to know what resources you have and exploit them to the max.
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sonny sharrock got his thing from albert ayler...and trane...his holy three along with bird...
albert ayler would state an iconic sounding theme as a head...he was influenced by marching bands and anthems...and he'd then go off into his own world of improvisation..exactly what sonny sharrock did...he'd have massive sounding heads...and then take'm completely out
his - ask the ages - recording is pure that!!
great band!!
Sonny Sharrock g...Pharoah Sanders ts,ss...Charnett Moffett b...Elvin Jones d
cheers
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Of course some people want to be guitar-like.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I'll admit that I would probably transcribe a sax player over a trumpet player too, because there are so many giants.....
oops,
while typing this I just recalled transcribing a little Chet Baker and Freddie Hubbard and might do more of the same, lol.
Regarding not taking a breath/inserting space, I also think that compositional form and harmonic rhythm have an influence. Meaning, some modal tunes are designed for extended, expansive blowing. The player I heard last night is more of a traditional player and plays more traditional tunes. Such tunes often have a certain phrase/section structure that comes from the song's head and vocal melody line, and as such don't always lend themselves to the.... unending motormouth style. Some pauses are expected and are refreshing, even if short, in contrast to the unending playing which can sound disconnected from the form at times.
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Due to the difficulty of the instrument, trumpet players rarely play intervals larger than a 3rd, (unless written, of course) and part of Woody Shaw's uniqueness of style was due to his deliberate woodshedding to use larger intervals to sound more like a sax, Freddie Hubbard spoke about trying to phrase like a sax. It worked for them.
To me, Jim Hall had horn sounding lines.
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Jazz was in its inception a horn driven music- brass bands playing on the streets and in the saloons of New Orleans. The music still has that heritage. That's why, as mr. beaumont wrote above, the horn sounds natural in this setting. Some other styles of music such as flamenco, Piedmont style blues, rock, etc., mostly developed on the guitar which is why there are few heavy metal horn players and even fewer flamenco sax players. Although "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" could be a great big band tune.
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
I agree with what you say. Ironically---for me, anyway---as much as I liked the horn in jazz early on, I care little for it now. It's the same instrument, but technically dazzling horn solos that go on for ten minutes at blazing tempi irritate me now.
Still love this, though.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I've been blessed/cursed with playing both trumpet and guitar since I was a kid. They are very different instruments, but complementary. I think my soloing on either instrument is probably pretty similar, because my phrasing and harmonic concept is pretty much the same.
People generally think of horns when they think of jazz, so I would take it as a compliment if someone said my guitar solo sounded like a horn. When I first got into jazz as a teenager, it was on guitar. My brother made an uninformed comment along the lines of, "what, no horns?". Up to that point i'd only played trumpet in school band, and wasn't very good at that. But I pursued it in earnest after that. Guitar, though, taught me rhythm and harmony.
What makes a horn so compelling is, it's voice, there's a depth and personality that's unique. Hear one or two notes from Louis or Miles, and you know who it is.
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Another way to think about it:
If you listen to Joey DeFrancesco play organ you hear him nearly constantly modulate volume. Organists ride that pedal, and it sounds great, partly because the organ key generates a continuous tone which the volume pedal can modulate.
Is there another instrument that does that?
Well, maybe horns come closest -- because they can vary volume within a single note, any way they want, more or less.
To me, that's the essence of horn-like. It's the ability to make a note speak, ring, swell, wobble, honk, squeal, sing, you name it.
Piano is at the other extreme. Classical pianists do talk about the importance of touch, but it's a subtlety. You hit the note with a certain velocity. It starts to die right away. One pedal can extend it to a degree.
Guitar is in between. A skilled player with a good command of the equipment can get a lot of expression. Even an archtop player can bend, shake, palm-mute, hammer, pull-off and gliss. With a vibrato bar, some FX and a volume pedal you can get quite a bit more. But you still don't hear guitars sound like Joey D. Closest I've heard was a skilled guitar synth player.
In fact, I can imagine that, sooner or later, somebody is going to put all that together in a jazz context in a way we haven't heard before. Or maybe it's happened already and I missed it.
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Horn-like I think, refers to legato, long fluid phrasing. At least, that is what I think about when I hear someone use that term.
To sound like something else than the obvious can mean that it is original, innovative, etc, something that many artists value high
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bumping this thread because i've been thinking about this.
Originally Posted by MarkRhodesOriginally Posted by candido
definitely agree re charlie christian... note his phrasing and articulation, it's a far cry from 100%-alternate-picked-100%-12-tone-equal-temperament playing. (which is what I think of as the least 'horn-like' thing) B.B. King another great one, the master of blues phrasing and bending, making the instrument talk.
i used to play alto and tenor sax. horn-like to me means some combination of the following...
- variation in dynamics and timbre - i.e., breath-based instruments respond differently to different levels of breath support. Horns can be brassy, sweet, aggressive, measured, etc etc, in addition to loudness/softness, all with breath. on guitar this might mean pick attack, left hand aggressiveness, picking location (near fretboard / near bridge), etc
- mixing of legato, staccato, marcato articulation - as previously mentioned
- variation in pitch outside the 'grid' of 12-tone-equal-temperament - Not only does varying embochure affect sharpness/flatness, so does slurring notes - because the function of the keys of a horn allows for inherent microtonality. (whether that's a trombone slide, half-pressing valves on a trumpet, or even moving between fingerings on a sax, flute, clarinet, etc. Adam Neely posted a recent youtube video of a Japanese shakuhachi [flute] that illustrates this beautifully)
On a guitar this could imply bends, sliding, whammy bar, etc. Charlie Christian above is great example
"vocal-ness" is a good way to describe this. I think this is all very doable on a string instrument, Carnatic violin is a great example of vocal-ness with hundreds of years of tradition of this style. Note the mirroring of the articulation of the singer (TM Krishna) by the violinist Akkarai Subhalakshmi, all improvised and in the moment.
This call-and-response style is maybe what we could aspire to when transcribing horn players - not just focusing on notes and 'cleanness', but accuracy of feeling, swaying, motion.
Last edited by stylo; 12-20-2022 at 10:08 PM.
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for those who might be interested here is Carnatic music performed on three different instruments: veena, guitar, saxophone (the great Kadri Gopalnath) all exhibiting a similar vocal quality characteristic of the tradition. one should never say it's impossible because of the instrument one plays, rather find a way to make it happen
A nice blond and Mickey Rooney on drums
Today, 07:38 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos