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I mean play
D F A C , B A G F E
That unlocked changes playing for me .....
Simples ! ...... (Kinda). ????
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12-14-2018 09:45 PM
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For a good primer, I can eagerly recommend Fareed Haque’s TrueFire course “Bebop Improvisation Survival Guide”. Not so much because he will teach you play bebop, but because he is a master at presenting material so it sound obvious, logical, and totally doable. It takes a lifetime to implement what he tells you, and there are better resources for exercises and training modules. But I’ve found none better for demystifying the basic concept and showing you how the bebop sound is built.
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The whole OP question from the Rock player's perspective might as well be: "What is it that Joe Pass or Wes Montgomery is doing that is not the same as what Jimmy Page or Eric Clapton is doing?". On a forum like this we see a multitude of suggestions, all with validity and all told with the best intentions. Yet, If I were asking the question I'd be disappointed that these answers serve to confuse more than they clarify. This is because it really is a complex question where the answers really need to be shown in person over a long period of time. So get a good teacher.
In the meantime, remember that Bop/Straightahead Jazz soloing is about stressing chord tones against the chord (or cadence) of the moment. You need more than arpeggios and scales unfortunately (although that's always a good place to start). You need many ways to embellish these chord tones using non chord tones. The Jazz player can play all 12 notes against any chord in any tunes and still sound like they are "playing the changes" by the way the chord tones are being placed and/or stressed. There are dozens of common chromatic devices (ornaments, passing tones, enclosures etc etc), some of which you can find on the Lessons part of this Forum. Start with just one such idea and practice against one chord. Then loop a 2 - 5 - 1 progression and try these embellished chord tone devices against that. Your first goal might be to play at least one musical sentence that is firmly in the Jazz language. Get the notes right, the sound, the touch, the groove/time/feel, everything. Then you learn another, and another and another. Then you make longer sentences against longer chord sequences (first 8 bars of a Standard), then full tunes.
Along the way you steal ideas from your listening, but only when you hear something you just gotta have! No good learning licks from books, you have to learn to be guided by your own developing tastes, and that means a lot of listening to start to know what you prefer. Decode the lines of your fave players, if you can't understand the thinking behind them, learn enough theory to help with that. If you still can't figure it out, come back to this forum and ask us.
But don't expect any magic secret, methods, book, youtube or advice. There are NO shortcuts (otherwise I would have found them, trust me). Just thousands of hours of focused work on one small thing at a time. We do this because we enjoy the journey. If you can't wait to get to the destination, you never will.
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Yea no shortcuts.... but you can have organized use of time and get where your trying to much faster.
Improve has all kinds of organizations... but most of it ends up being.... Target Note(s) and how you organize the notes between those target notes.
Simple version.... playing a tune, you have specific notes.... targets notes that are played on specific chords. All The Things, Autumn leaves Joy spring... Blues... whatever.
That's what a melody is.... target notes with relationships to Target Chords...
Take Autumn Leaves.... the target notes for the 1st 8 bare.... are
"C"... Bars 1,2
"B"... Bars 3,4
"A"... Bars 5,6
"G"... Bars 7,8
And the organization for notes between those target notes is a note pattern, scale with leap with relationship to the chords... to the target notes.
So when you solo.... you generally do the same thing.... you have a physical organization of the space using musical organization.
You have physical target notes or note pattern that implies that Target note with a relationship to a Chord.. And where you use and organize the location of those TARGETS.
You then have some organized use of filler notes between those Targets.
It's not magic.... generally the Targets have a relationship with the chord that you play them on. Chord tone, extension, there are many ways to organize the Targets....I mean in Autumn leaves.... The result is a very simple vanilla scale descending diatonic line with pickup note patterns.
Becoming aware of Scales, Chord Tones, Arpeggios etc... typical musical BS... will help you become aware of all the possibilities and why some music sounds the way it does.
Most tend to copy pros and try to internalize the sounds...basically memorizes as much as possible. It works... but the results tend to have problems repeating... that be.... being able to perform and have results that work without lots of practice.
If you at least have organization of the space, like FORMs and organization within those FORMS... of the music, at least what you choose to play will fit within the physical space of what your playing.
As you become better at organizing the space within tunes, the form and it's parts....it will become easier to organize whatever Guitar skills you have to solo.
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For pentatonics, check out Steve Khan's book!
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All your posts describe that your playing does not sound like jazz, in spite of playing the right notes. That sounds to me like your rhythmic phrasing and articulation are not in the jazz style, so the right notes aren't yet expressing the "jazz sound".
That's why folks are pointing to chord tones and targets - and not just meaning to play them, but grasp them as the rhythmic nodes around which to organize the other notes... chord tones and target notes are rhythmically "primary" in the sense that their rhythmic placement (organization) is the force to organize the rhythmic placement of the rest of the notes. The notes are all played in sequence, but you "hear ahead" (feel the organizational rhythmic pressure of the targets' placement in advance) in order to phrase and articulate the whole line.
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good thread..this is the journey of a musician..to create YOUR music..and not only finding the tools to do so but how to USE those tools..
yes the basics..scales arpeggios chords and melodies withing various rhythmic structures..
the challenge is to keep accepting more advanced / difficult material- like a basic three chord blues to a Parker/Davis/Coltrane flavored blues
then how to internalize this material and make it "yours"
Yes..songs structures are necessary as is the theory/harmonic analysis of them .. moving voices and chord substitutions
now all of this takes alot of discipline and constant practice and as Reg has said many times an organization of this material..
for me at this point in my playing is the constant study of intervals and melodic patterns and mixing them together---
example..the interval of a 5th in G: G D A..followed by a melodic pattern 2 3 1 5 -A B G D and keeping the melodic pattern going to the iii chord in G: C D B F# to the V of G: E F# D A back to the basic intervals G D A...then move the intervals to D: D A E followed by the melodic pattern 2 3 1 5 in D etc..then all the possible variations of the melodic patterns in the scale of the key your working with..ted greene (tedgreene.com) wrote out (by hand!) over 200 melodic patterns in the key of Dmaj alone !! .. so add minor dim & aug variations and you have a melodic garden with lots of colors...vary the rhythm and you begin to hear many parts of well known melodies of songs old and new
the constant study of this type of thinking-if done in ALL keys is the ability to go from one tonal center to another without getting lost and adding embellishments-licks-runs-lines-riffs-cliches ..and create some very tasty short punchy statements or longer liquid lines that are both pleasing to hear AND fun to play
watching and listening to top players they will use set patterns in many ways..as a starting point-a transition to another key or a variation of a motif that was created with another melodic pattern .. there are no rules with the application of this kind of stuff..you have to just jump in and begin to use it
with experimentation many of the patterns will work in several keys-(try the example in G over Bb E and Ab) and bring the outside in and the inside out..
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Listening to jazz played on instruments other than the guitar can be a great help. One starts to gain an appreciation of the music itself, rather than making dispiriting comparisons between what one can play and what a jazz guitarist does.
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The poor OP's head has probably exploded by now.... There should be a sticky or a lessons section purpose built for Rock players wishing to learn Jazz, and it needs to be written by players w. ho have managed to cross the divide. There are some specific issues that only ex Rocker's will be aware of, many habits (physical and mental) that need to be erased. Also, I feel there are ways to introduce Jazz concepts that build upon what they already know - at least as a starting point.
All of our advice, as well intentioned as it is, will probably scare people away, which is sad. The future of Jazz guitar may very well be in the hands of people who start out with Rock/Blues...
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I hear what your saying..but "Jazz" has evolved and the label itself has changed..many progressive "rock" players are using jazz lines in their solos and some chord work also..the term "fusion" is not used that much now but I hear it in alot of rock solos and even some country
on another guitar site which caters to young speed/metal players at some point they want to expand..traditional jazz may be too complex..all the chords and all..but fusion attracts them..lots of "modes" even though they dont fully understand modal harmony or what makes it work..they hear someone like Holdsworth or McLaughlin and want to know what they are doing
when I teach some of "rock" oriented guys and show them some fusion lines they usually want to know how to play them ... and many jazz tunes based on blues are a great intro .. and of course Miles Davis helps that alot
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1. Learn pentatonics
2. Unlearn pentatonics
3. Learn Multiple pentatonics on chord (e.g. on CM-->C Maj P, G Maj P, D Maj P
4. Learn Slip-sliding pentatonics
5. Learn different pentatonics (dom 7, sus7, jazz minor pentatonic, etc.)
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Hehe, it is more than a little ironic, but yeah, Pentatonics can end up being one's "advanced" devices, but obviously used in a totally different way when compared to Blooz usage.
Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott
Between stages #2 and #3, I'd recommend a few years of chord tone embellishment in the mainstream Jazz style before moving onto concepts that arose in the 60's. After that I'd be suggesting, if the interest is there, to investigate the styles that emerged in the 70's and beyond.
Now, some might say "Why not just jump straight from Blues / Rock to Fusion or Jazz Rock?". To that I'd simply answer that IF players wish to really understand later styles, they need to come to them via the earlier styles that led to them. After all, that is how the founders of said styles came to them. But yeah, if its just casual interest (eg- the rock player that wants to learn some flashy fusion licks), then of course that's fine, although it won't really further a player's understanding of "Jazz", nor is it likely to advance the culture, or even help to just keep the torch aflame. My take is that we are not just worshipping the ashes of a culture, but preserving the fire.
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Nobody should be advised to play music that does not interest them, because it is in the tradition. If fusion is your thing, then learn fusion. Playing 'mainstream' jazz for years would only make you miserable, and would not be much help. Learning to improvise on songs from forgotten musicals is not everybody's idea of fun, and would do little to further one's understanding of Scofield, Holdsworth, Coryell, et al.
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Pretty sure if you asked Scofield and Coryell if years spent learning the mainstream tradition was a waste of time they might disagree with you... Originally Posted by Litterick
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I agree with your point, but disagree with your example. If you are not interested in jazz, and can't play jazz, then it can't really be fusion. It would just be some kind of progressive rock. Originally Posted by Litterick
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That is not what I would ask them or assume. But a contemporary jazz guitarist could build on what they did rather than spending years learning the jazz guitar of the 1950s, which is what 'mainstream' seems to mean in this thread. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Going from playing pentatonics to the major scale and others is sometimes just a matter of adding more notes.
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Mmm, well, for me, when I hear contemporary Jazz players I tend to like the ones that seem to have absorbed some of that tradition. Without it I hear rock, blues, classical, atonal, folk, country, ethnic /world etc etc - in other words anything but Jazz! ... I mean, can Holdsworth really be considered a Jazz guitarist? Sheesh, some people don't even consider George Benson a Jazz guitarist! Originally Posted by Litterick
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Strategically adding chromaticism to pentatonics goes a long way to producing certain Jazz styles. Check out Prez... Originally Posted by Drumbler
Going from playing pentatonics to the major scale and others is sometimes just a matter of adding more notes.
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I'm not the most experienced one here at all but two things are itching when I read this and reminded my own lo..ong route.
1: don't practice your tools (whatever they are - scales, arps or licks) without playing them as real music, playing and having fun. There are loads of ways to make it fun and only a few to make it numb. Still many (including myself) chose the latter for some strange reason. Finding ways to make it all fun should be the everlasting daily question.
2:transcribe the jazziest sounding solo you could find and analyze it. Like - that a lick? that an arp? what scale? passing tones here? etc.. see what happens, maybe the whole thing is simpler than you thought? Note-wise I mean.
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We spent so much time discussing his picking technique, and it turns out he is not even a jazz guitarist. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Sheesh, some people don't even consider George Benson a Jazz guitarist!
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I guess you could think of the scale as a pentatonic with two notes added to it, but I think it’s more useful to think of the pentatonic as part of a scale, with two notes omitted to remove any semitone (half step or minor 2nd) or tritone (b5) intervals. A room full of people playing random notes from the same pentatonic scale will never sound dissonant. That’s why pentatonics are used for wind chimes. Originally Posted by Drumbler
Going from playing pentatonics to the major scale and others is sometimes just a matter of adding more notes.
There are also a number of ways to substitute pentatonics over scales or modes, but I think you need to first grasp those scales for the substitutions to make sense. Thinking of the various scales and modes as a pentatonic with a couple of notes added seems like the hard way to learn it.
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Yea... Pentatonics.... a scales or arpeggion. I tend to think of as a scale, but agree with Kirk, it's not really a scale. Maybe more of a Lick. Who cares... they are great guitar patterns and licks etc...
I generally use them as tool to create relationships with different chords or chord patterns. Dominant Pentatonics are great for developing melodic or Target note ideas on...
7th chord
II- V's
Access to 7th chords with #11, (or related altered sub or related II- etc...)
Bb Dom Pen.... Bb C D F Ab
So you have Bb7...Bb D F Ab and 9th(c)
You have F- ..F Ab C and the D implies nat. 6th so either Dorian... or if you embellish with "E" you can get into MM
Which opens... Bb7#11, E7 altered and on and on... change the added note(s) and you have way too many possibilities to create and develop... all with a very ear friendly reference.... the guitar stylistic pentatonic R&R lick.
The same approach can be used with standards, (Old pop or jazz tunes) using standard pentatonic pattern to open Blue Notes using MM....which is how you get into Blues feels with standards, (Jazz Blues Feels). Very different from rock or fusion sound or feel.
This does require guitar skills and having most of the technical theory BS etc... but doesn't take that long.
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But you are assuming the individual knows the major scale already and is coming from that direction. Originally Posted by KirkP
The OP is a PENTATONIC player. That's what he knows and his frame of reference will most likely always be pentatonics first.
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My brother is learning to play guitar and I've been helping him. I only see him 3 - 4 times a year and did so at Thanksgiving. Well he shows me what he is working on and he pulls out this chart of the minor pentatonic in the 5 positions. I played I\IV\V chords and he could play 3 of the positions well. I could hear that he was also working in the two 'missing' notes from the blues scale. I look down on his sheet and I see that those two 'missing' notes are 'circles' on the sheet (instead of 'dots'). I said 'oh cool, I see you put in those additional blues notes making the pentatonic the blues scales!'. He laughs and says 'you put those in last time I was here'. Originally Posted by Drumbler
Maybe someone did something similar for the OP.
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