Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group

[znerken]

Yes, all true... but have you noticed that, for instance, Am7 and C6 are the same thing with different bass notes? And Bm7b5 and Dm6? :-)

So there aren't two more scales. You already know those, you just call them something different. So:

Dm7 G7 C6 becomes F6 G7 C6
Bm7b5 E7b9 Am6 becomes Dm6 E7b9 Am6

Now, none of us tend to be too interested in the 7 scale either because, you can use the m6-dim scale:

Dm6 on G7
Abm6 on G7alt

So you can do it all with two scales. Major6-dim and minor6-dim.

That's the start. What you are doing by learning these rules is getting basic old school block chords down - big band stuff, what you hear in a 40s big band when a sax section plays a melody line. George Shearing was famous for soloing in this way on the piano.

Where it starts to get interesting is where we borrow notes breaking up that basic parallel thing.... But that's further down the line. Learn yer grips and get harmonising melodies. Took me a while.

Ye, I noticed that Am7 is a C6(for example a while back, when playing with drop 2). In fact, when playing with drop 2 you learn that many chords are alike, or pieces of other chords.


Learn yer grips and get harmonising melodies. Took me a while

So if I understand you correctly, you only learn the min6, maj6 and dim voicings? Then you are done with the learning grips step? So you have to connect all 7 chords to 6 chords then basically? Was that your post summarised? If not, please explain further, and sorry if I am being slow!

[znerken]

Another thing -

Dm7 G7 C6 is all C6-dim
Bm7b5 E7b9 Am6 is all Am6-dim

So when harmonising a melody using those chord scales on a II-V-I say, just use the one scale for the whole thing. Later on, you can bring in other scales, but start simple.

For instance:

Cm7 | F7 | Bb | % |
Am7b5 | D7b9 | Gm6 | % |

Is

Bb6-dim | % | % | % |
Gm6-dim | % | %| % |

To start with.

This is because they come from the major scale, right?

For example:
Dm7 G7 C6 is all C6-dim

Because Dm7 is the II, the G7 is the V and the C6 is the I of C major?
Bm7b5 E7b9 Am6 is all Am6-dim, because they belong to the relative minor of the C major?(the E7 is from the harmonic minor of course).

[christianm77]

Ye, I noticed that Am7 is a C6(for example a while back, when playing with drop 2). In fact, when playing with drop 2 you learn that many chords are alike, or pieces of other chords.


Learn yer grips and get harmonising melodies. Took me a while

So if I understand you correctly, you only learn the min6, maj6 and dim voicings? Then you are done with the learning grips step? So you have to connect all 7 chords to 6 chords then basically? Was that your post summarised? If not, please explain further, and sorry if I am being slow!

Yeah, for now. I mean not for good.

So....
Am7 = C6 ---> C6-dim
Dm6 = Bm7b5 = G7 = Db7alt --> Dm6-dim

Most important chordal relationship to learn IMO, have this etched into your brain in all 12. Great for all kinds of stuff. There's a lot more you can do, but these are the basics, and the basics go a long way.

Learn drop2's for maj6 and min6 dim scales, all string-groups all keys, in position and along the strings.

(The maths works out as only around 3x4 maj6 + 3X4 min6 + 3 dim7 = 27 total voicings, but that's got to be fluent in all 12 and the scales of chords under your fingers.... As I say it took me a while, but you may be faster!)

Then, there's drop 3 scales. (20 voicings for these)

That'll do for starters.

I'd focus on getting good at those.

But it's a start. There's a lot more to it. Barry is HARD, it's a bit of a rabbit hole. Esp. when you go to a workshop and get your arse handed to you lol. But come back every time a bit more able to hang on. Old school.

[christianm77]

This is because they come from the major scale, right?

For example:
Dm7 G7 C6 is all C6-dim

Because Dm7 is the II, the G7 is the V and the C6 is the I of C major?
Bm7b5 E7b9 Am6 is all Am6-dim, because they belong to the relative minor of the C major?(the E7 is from the harmonic minor of course).

Yeah, but the Maj6-dim scale is everything the major scale is - and more.... C D E F G G# A B

Dm7b5 G7b9 C6 is also from the C6-dim
Dm7b5(maj7) G13b9 Cmaj7#5 is also from C6-dim
And so on

There's a lot of colours with just one extra note.... A B C D E F F# G#

OTOH same for the Am6/dim compared to the A harmonic minor. More useful because it has the natural 6 as well, so
Bm7 E9 Am6 is also from Am-dim
Bm7 E7b9 AmMaj7 is from Am-dim

The A harmonic minor (A B C D E F G#) is in both the C6-dim and Am6-dim scale too - check it out... It's pretty mad when you get into it:

[znerken]

Yeah, for now. I mean not for good.

So....
Am7 = C6 ---> C6-dim
Dm6 = Bm7b5 = G7 = Db7alt --> Dm6-dim

Most important chordal relationship to learn IMO, have this etched into your brain in all 12. Great for all kinds of stuff. There's a lot more you can do, but these are the basics, and the basics go a long way.

Learn drop2's for maj6 and min6 dim scales, all string-groups all keys, in position and along the strings.

(The maths works out as only around 3x4 maj6 + 3X4 min6 + 3 dim7 = 27 total voicings, but that's got to be fluent in all 12 and the scales of chords under your fingers.... As I say it took me a while, but you may be faster!)

Then, there's drop 3 scales. (20 voicings for these)

That'll do for starters.

I'd focus on getting good at those.

But it's a start. There's a lot more to it. Barry is HARD, it's a bit of a rabbit hole. Esp. when you go to a workshop and get your arse handed to you lol. But come back every time a bit more able to hang on. Old school.

So one question, is Barry for everyone? Just so I don't start on something I regret. Of course not for people without the motivation.

Why only 20 voicings for drop 3, but 27 for drop 2 many people may ask. That's because you get just two different string sets. Right?

[znerken]

Yeah, but the Maj6-dim scale is everything the major scale is - and more.... C D E F G G# A B

Dm7b5 G7b9 C6 is also from the C6-dim
Dm7b5(maj7) G13b9 Cmaj7#5 is also from C6-dim
And so on

There's a lot of colours with just one extra note.... A B C D E F F# G#

OTOH same for the Am6/dim compared to the A harmonic minor. More useful because it has the natural 6 as well, so
Bm7 E9 Am6 is also from Am-dim
Bm7 E7b9 AmMaj7 is from Am-dim

The A harmonic minor (A B C D E F G#) is in both the C6-dim and Am6-dim scale too - check it out... It's pretty mad when you get into it:

Holy.... I guess this is something I should wait a little with. Since one of my comping problems is the groove and making it interesting, I should probably keep it not too advanced. However I really would love to get a clear way to understanding all the options you can use over a chord progression. Let's say Ornithology, what would you think in terms of scales over this?




Would you just use the C6, Eb6 and G6 diminished scale, then when it switches to G minor, the G6 diminished minor scale?

[christianm77]

So one question, is Barry for everyone? Just so I don't start on something I regret. Of course not for people without the motivation.

Why only 20 voicings for drop 3, but 27 for drop 2 many people may ask. That's because you get just two different string sets. Right?

No there are many great guitarists who don't know anything about this stuff.

But learning voicings is always a good idea, and the drop 2 scales are extremely useful for old school jazz harmonies whether you go further with them or not. Barry didn't invent them, they are everywhere in 40s and 50s jazz.

[znerken]

No there are many great guitarists who don't know anything about this stuff.

But learning voicings is always a good idea, and the drop 2 scales are extremely useful for old school jazz harmonies whether you go further with them or not. Barry didn't invent them, they are everywhere in 40s and 50s jazz.

But not for bebop and other genres? I mean if you are really interested in neo soul, as an example? Neo soul takes a lot from jazz. I would imagine even jazz from this era use stuff from the 40's and 50's? Learning something for just playing music from the 1940 and 1950 would be a little wasted, perhaps.

[christianm77]

But not for bebop and other genres? I mean if you are really interested in neo soul, as an example? Neo soul takes a lot from jazz. I would imagine even jazz from this era use stuff from the 40's and 50's? Learning something for just playing music from the 1940 and 1950 would be a little wasted, perhaps.

Bebop is 40s and 50s jazz. But this style of harmony was born in the big band era, late 30s on.

Barry Harris basically thinks any stylistic innovation in jazz after 1960 is a mistake so there you go, that’s his thing.

[znerken]

Bebop is 40s and 50s jazz. But this style of harmony was born in the big band era, late 30s on.

Barry Harris basically thinks any stylistic innovation in jazz after 1960 is a mistake so there you go, that’s his thing.

All old people think everything after they became old sucks


Have you seen this:

He has a modern sound(approach) by changing two of the chords back to 7.

[christianm77]

All old people think everything after they became old sucks


Have you seen this:

He has a modern sound(approach) by changing two of the chords back to 7.

Nah I haven’t watched his vids much

[christianm77]

I’ll leave some other guys to answer further queries ;-)

[znerken]

I’ll leave some other guys to answer further queries ;-)

Last questions before you go. What about that ornithology question?

[christianm77]

Last questions before you go. What about that ornithology question?

You can work it out by ear I’m sure :-)

[znerken]

You can work it out by ear I’m sure :-)

I will, it was more a question if I understood things correctly, and how you think on it.

[christianm77]

I will, it was more a question if I understood things correctly, and how you think on it.

Oh perhaps it was a different question than the one I thought? Not sure?

[znerken]

Oh perhaps it was a different question than the one I thought? Not sure?

Let me ask this then: You have a II-V-I in C maj, Bb maj and Dmin(just some random keys). How would you go forward in finding which diminished 6th scale to use over these chord progressions? Is it as easy as just using C6 dim over C maj, Bb6 dim over Bbmaj, and D6min over Dmin?

[PMB]

Wow, Americans say trousers sometimes? I did not know.

Parker loved to affect an English accent so I'm sure a fair bit of vocabulary worked its way in there as well. On a side note, how come all the words for that item of clothing are so terrible sounding - trousers, pants, slacks...?

[pcjazz]

Parker loved to affect an English accent so I'm sure a fair bit of vocabulary worked its way in there as well. On a side note, how come all the words for that item of clothing are so terrible sounding - trousers, pants, slacks...?

But "bags" is groovy!

[christianm77]

Let me ask this then: You have a II-V-I in C maj, Bb maj and Dmin(just some random keys). How would you go forward in finding which diminished 6th scale to use over these chord progressions? Is it as easy as just using C6 dim over C maj, Bb6 dim over Bbmaj, and D6min over Dmin?

C6-dim, Bb6-dim and Dm6-dim

So yeah...

You could do something more complicated, but that's where I would start.

[grahambop]

Last questions before you go. What about that ornithology question?

These might be of interest. How High The Moon is essentially the same as Ornithology.

[znerken]

Okay, so I understand that using alternative 6diminished scale is a big part of this. For example using a G6 over a Cmaj7 to get that Cmaj9 sound. However, what I wonder about, is what about that F# in that scale? Are you only supposed to play the G6 chord inversions, and stay away from the dim chords?

[znerken]

These might be of interest. How High The Moon is essentially the same as Ornithology.

So much great information! The funny thing is that when he talks, I sometimes hear his voice sound like Barry. You can really hear that he has been spending huge chunks of time with him

[WILSON 1]

Okay, so I understand that using alternative 6diminished scale is a big part of this. For example using a G6 over a Cmaj7 to get that Cmaj9 sound. However, what I wonder about, is what about that F# in that scale? Are you only supposed to play the G6 chord inversions, and stay away from the dim chords?

For the longest time (more then I'd like to admit) I spent so much time on II-V-I that I didn't have a plan for the I when I got there...spent a lot of time toggling C maj 7 and C6.

With BH ideas I now use the G7dim scale and borrowed notes ie D min9- G(whatever) then x3444x x3424x to C maj 7.

That x3444x is the diminished on the four of the G7 dim scale with a borrowed B from the second inversion of the G7 ...you would say the alto voice of the inversion..the F# is from the dim on the four of the G7 dim scale.

Now I have three chords to rhythmically apply.

[znerken]

Okay, I was hoping I could get some feedback of the first A and B part on Ornithology, and my chord choice? I just want to know if I am thinking about this correctly. There are several different alternatives, of course. But I got to take this vanilla.


So Ornithology:

G^7	G^7	G-7	C7
F^7	F^7	F-7	Bb7
Eb^7	Aø7 D7	G-7	D7b9
B-7	E7	A-7	D7

Ornithology Barry Harris sixth chords

G6	G6	G-6	G-6
F6	F6	F-6	F-6
Eb6	A-6	G-6	A-6
B-6	C6	A-6	A-6

So how did I arrive on the chords? First of all I have read that Barry is not very fond on using a II in a II-V, he says just play the V, like many people do. Also, since the tempo is quite high, I gotta keep it simple.

Why G-6 over a C7? Because G-6 = G Bb D E, C7 is C E G Bb. The same goes for the other II-V situations. For example F-6 over F-7 to Bb7.

F-7 = F Ab C D Bb7 = Bb D F Ab. This gives a nice 9 like sound, (Bb) D F Ab C.

E7 is not in the key of Gmaj, so I get the II chord in B major, like I just explained above. So C6.


Now you could take this one further step, and think of all the minor chords as major chords. So G-6 = Eb6, right?

My last question would be how do you use the dim chords, when doing all this chord substitutions? For example when I play G-6 over C7, can I use all the G-6 dim chords? Or do you just use all the appropriate Dim chords from the original 6 dim scale? So if we were in C6, I would use all the C6 dim chords, for example Bdim?


Another II-V-I approach would be:
D-7-G7-C^7 = F6 Bdim C6

For minor the exact same, just replace F6 and C6 with F-6 and C-6? I do feel a little bit of the purpose is lost if I change to two different 6dim scales in a II-V-I over 2 bars though. Can't make a lot of movement then.