-
The mode of the first degree of the major scale is Ionian.
However, the tensions of Cmaj7 for example are D,F#,A, and that creates the Lydian mode.
So what is the right mode for first degree, Lydian or Ionian?
And generally, should I choose modes solely by tensions, or should I consider scales and their degrees??
-
08-11-2018 10:26 AM
-
Oh boy! Popcorn time! (The "Lydian Tonic" is kind of controversial around here).
I think most people would say that the natural 11 is appropriate for Ionian, but would caution that that's an "avoid" or "handle with care" note.
-
This is a bit confusing in the way that you set it up.
Originally Posted by hag01
1. Your first sentence states that the mode built from the first degree in a diatonic major key is Ionian. (That's regarded as a fact in western music. So far, so good).
2. Your third sentence asks if it is "right". (Since facts aren't right or wrong, do you mean right in terms of frequency of use, or of preference?)
3. Your fourth sentence asks how to "choose modes" (choose for what? composing and writing chord symbols?, for improvisation?, for subs/reharms of something somebody else wrote?), and also asks if you should you consider the scale or mode degrees? (that last part gets an unequivocal "yes").
One could look at it this way:
Traditionally and generally speaking:
Available tensions on Imaj7: 9, 13
Available tensions on IVmaj7: 9, #11, 13
In some instances if a composer emphatically wants the Lydian sound they specify #11 in the Maj7 chord symbol. That constrains the answer set.
But what if they don't? If you want to use the Lydian sound with a chord that is not obviously a IV chord in major, it's up to you. Some people prefer it. There is a theory of harmony called the Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization. It's perhaps not as popular as it once was but is still used.. You may want to check it out.
-
The ionian is judging by frequency of it's appearance in musical history in many styles is certifiably
the starting reference for major tonality.
On a I chord it is possible to use 4, #4 or both.
#4 on a I chord is a common sound in certain styles and virtually non-existant in others.
The 4 melodically is used mostly a passing tone, or implied passing chord, Isus, IIm7,IVma7, V7, VIIm7b7, etc.
-
If this is solely about improv or melodic lines, you may want to investigate the theory of avoid notes.
Or perhaps harmonic or vertical avoid notes. (hint, hint)
-
Originally Posted by bako
That's a good way to put it. Would you please point to some example tunes or composers, but especially tunes that utilize #11 on I commonly? That would be a very valuable illustration.
-
So much "jazz semantics" around this stuff. At a basic level, if you're going to say "Ionian", it's Nat 4. There IS no #11. But people just talk about things in very different ways, which may be largely philosophical.
If you're playing bluegrass over basic I chord, you're going to see plenty of #11's in relation to tonic because the chords don't change as much and the harmony's simpler, whereas if you're playing organ in a church, those would-be #11's are going to be re-harmonized as a separate chord 99% of the time, even if it's exactly the same melody as the bluegrass version. So, is it a sharp 11 or not? Somewhat personal or philosophical, and somewhat related to style etc. jazz falls somewhere in between in my opinion, and again it seems to be personal to different players/teachers etc.
But at a basic level, it's confusing and unnecessary to talk about#11/#4 of "Ionian". At the very least, it's more straightforward to talk about "tonic major" (or major 7) ...or major 7 generally.
Ionian is Ionian.
-
Firstly, the base level context for the forum is jazz music and its melodic, harmonic, rhythmic and improvisational practices. Not bluegrass, traditional church music etc. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
And regarding "#11 of Ionian", no one in this thread has used that terminology, as such. "bako" mentioned two possible tensions on a I chord in major, however.
Finally, "#11" is for chord symbols, not scale/mode descriptions. Scale/mode descriptions have no need for a second octave, hence no 9,11,13. Indeed you referred to it as "natural 4", which is more appropriate for a scale description although relative to a tonic reference "perfect 4th" would have been more theoretically correct/conventional.
-
Thanks for the condescending BS. I really needed someone too nitpick my comments out of context. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
-
Good question because I'm a bit hard pressed to think of a tune off the top of my head using #4 on a I major chord in the melody. Probably too many examples of major songs ending on a lydian inflected I chord. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
-
I'm not at all sure I understand the question. Originally Posted by hag01
Might you put in terms of a particular tune?
If you are asking whether to play C Ionian vs C lydian against Cmaj7, it depends on the tune and what you want your solo to sound like. If you're talking about the first chord of All of Me in Cmaj, and it's 1940, there's an excellent chance, I suppose, that your audience would be less surprised by C Ionian.
But, if you're talking about the Fmaj7 8 bars before the end, the odds might be different.
And then, there's the usual caveat -- you can play any note over any chord if your line is strong enough melodically and rhythmically.
If you're asking what the "right" choice is, I'd say there is common vs. uncommon, inside vs outside, but not right vs wrong.
-
rpjazzguitar,
You gave a good example - All Of Me first Cmaj7 - I always thought C Ionian is the conventional choice.
In Autumn Leaves for example I always played on Cmaj7 C Lydian and then on Gmaj7 I play G Ionian.
Another case of the same issue, just not with maj7 chords, is Beutiful Love - in the first chord - E-7b5 - this is the scale I always played - E,F,G,A,Bb,C,D(I don't know what's the name of this mode), but if I'll go with the tensions of E-7b5 this is the scale I should play - E,F#,G,A,Bb,C,D, because for 7-b5 chords the tensions are 9,11,b13(am I correct?).
(Edited)Last edited by hag01; 08-11-2018 at 08:43 PM.
-
Yeah that's what I meant, a tune with an obvious I chord but with a #11. Originally Posted by bako
-
The tensions only include an F# if you want them to. You're in charge, not them. Originally Posted by hag01
-
You didn't ask me but I'll chime in. Originally Posted by hag01
1. There are multiple chord scale choices for 7b5 chords, with different tensions (Altered, Whole Tone, Half-Whole).
2. I'm not convinced E7b5 is correct. Some sheet music examples show E-7b5, which seems more theoretically correct for D minor. My old Real Book shows E7b5 too, while others show E-7b5. The melody has the minor 3rd (G, not G#) on beat 4. Try D minor or D harmonic minor there.Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 08-11-2018 at 08:35 PM.
-
Jazzstdnt, Yes Yes!!! it is E-7b5, I was confused!
And what about those maj7 example I asked about?
Please please please, I really want an answer if you would be so nice.
-
They are spot on. Originally Posted by hag01
-
The only part of this post I'd take issue with is the word "should". Em7b5 occurs in the key of F (all white keys but Bb) and in Gmelmin (all white keys but Bb and F#. So you "could" play either and the notes will mostly sound consonant. But, others will point out other choices. Originally Posted by hag01
When I analyze things, I get the chord tones first, E G Bb D. Since you're flatting the 5 forget about B.
Since it's minor, forget about G#. Since it has a m7, forget about Eb. ("forget" is too strong. play a good enough line and you can use them).
That takes care of 7 notes. You can choose F vs F#. You can put in the 11th (A, which will sound good, usually). C is going to be tough to use, but you can try it. C# will conflict with D to some extent. Not a great choice. And that's all of them.
Pick the ones you like, put them in order and see if you've reinvented a common scale. There's an app on line called scale finder which will help.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 08-12-2018 at 03:28 PM.
-
It's Ionian. You imply IV in the key of V when you add the #11. i.e. Cmaj7#11 occurs naturally in G major.
-
Mona Lisa? Originally Posted by bako
Reply With Quote
2 new & excellent Jazz Comping Truefire...
Yesterday, 10:22 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions