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Altered dominants using Lydian Augmented
a way of looking at similar things & nothing new students starting may not always hear Altered scale & struggle making musical lines.
Frequently over G7#5#9 a G altered scale or Ab melodic minor up 1/2 step is used (there are other scales)
some players think Altered scale from Root or Melodic Minor 1/2step up ( G alt scale & Ab melodic min both have same notes)
The altered scale can sound unusual unfamiliar by itself, and not too melodic etc
So another way of treating.
eg G7#5#9 use BMaj7#11 chord built from 3rd of G ( ignoring en-harmonics) the
B lydian Augmented B C# D# F G Ab Bb B has a Root G 3 b9 #9 b5 #5 b7
Play B lydian augmented scale, hearing the Beatles Yesterday? familiar sounding scale immediately singable, recognizable
So, by starting (Alt or Melodic Minor) from another place/note makes scale hopefully more recognizable, manageable etc
Also B lydian aug or BM7#11 is next to the target Cmin or Cmaj chord scale so simply B to C with B taking the place of G7 to Cm or CM it also gets one away from playing from the Root eg not starting on G but B, not that there is anything wrong in that.
another useful device is - "Cry me a River" lick/phrase that can be used over Alt Dominants and similar in likening ALTERED to something you recognize or is familiar.
Not a lesson on Melodic Minor harmony, Lydian Augmented & Altered scale are 7th & 3rd modes of the Melodic Minor scale.
a taste, as things can become rather complex.Last edited by Durban; 07-13-2018 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Typos tiyding up etc
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07-13-2018 08:01 AM
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There are some good entry points to getting into melodic minor. Personally, Lydian augmented probably isn't the simplest to PLAY.
If your reference is major/minor, the sharp five is a whole new thing . Somewhat starting from scratch. Lydian dominant would be more of an obvious entry point for me personally. It's very easy to hear , the scale itself and also voice leading , because the two chords are parallel. It has a natural five , and if you know a basic dominant arpeggio you can begin applying the sound immediately, just working on the resolutions.
m7-b5 arp on the b7 of your altV is easy if you already know half diminished. Relate to dominant 9, like rag man is talking about. Add the chromatic lower neighbor of the third of that chord, and you're starting to access that imMaj7 of MM.
Probably the easiest melodic minor sound in the beginning is to simply tac on a #9-b9-1-b7 to the very end of dominant chord resolutions, until you can hear them. Then, your ear is ready to start extending the "front end" of that line as well.
Anyway, if you're looking for "easy", I don't think Lydian augmented is it, but that being said, every musician owes it to themselves to learn to play melodic minor. This is kidstuff for pianists and horn players. Reg's approach to laying out melodic minor (and really everything else) is so much faster than traditional methods of just grokking the crap out of this stuff.
Now, in fairness to the OP, if we're NOT talking about "easiest", Lydian augmented probably has the most "JUICE" of any melodic minor modes. Simply playing it "as if" it's the chord of the moment , with corresponding arps and "chord tone" lines immediately gives very satisfying altered sounds. Straight altered scale itself takes a little more learning to handle.
So, if we're talking purely EARS, then I agree with OP to a large extent.
By the way, I had no idea Christian was such a villain on the global geopolitical scale. He looked like such a nice guy. ;-)
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BTW here's a thing I did.
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Here's my take:
The goal is kind of difficult. Mark Levine's notion is that all melodic minor chords are the same chord. I believe that he would suggest that this is true not just of the chords generated by stacking thirds, but by all possible tone clusters.
When I try it for comping, I can hear what he's talking about. Take a tune that starts with Imaj7 to II7#11. Say Fmaj7 to G7#11. Against the G7#11 substitute any chord from Dmelmin. They don't sound the same, but they all kind of work.
So, I thought, it would be great to have a whole bunch of chords from Dmelmin (and the other 11 keys) under my fingers all over the neck. Get it all organized in my mind so I could sub at will.
For reasons I won't go into for the moment, I started with a stack of 4ths within Dmelmin and moved them up the neck. I figured out the grips and then tried to name them in my mind so that I could see a chord symbol and immediately find the voicings. This idea generates a lot of grips and names. Or, you could name them Dmelmin and figure out how to think about finding how ever many grips that would generate.
To make a long story shorter, I found it overwhelming. But, by applying the idea to specific tunes, I eventually got a couple of grips that I knew how to use.
So, the poster suggesting Bmaj7#5 as an entry point addresses a piece of what I see as a potentially overwhelming problem. With so many options, where do you begin?
Addendum: I just spent about 20 minutes trying different clusters of notes from Fmelmin against Bb7#11 -- the second chord (after Fmaj7) of a tune called Rapaz De Bem.
Everything I tried worked, except xx5566. G C F Bb. They're all in Fmelmin but I didn't think they captured the sound of that tune, probably because the Bb7#11 really depends on an Ab and an Enat -- and, instead my tone cluster had a G and an F.
But, probably 20 other clusters of notes all worked, if I define "worked" rather broadly.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-13-2018 at 10:32 PM.
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Thank to those for well wishes,
was tempted in the begining to say this what Benson & Kurt did done etc,
BMaj7#4 for G7 as sub has all alt b9#9b5#5 extensions plus the R 3 7
it is both altered scale & also MMin.
Trying to NOT mention Melodic Minor,difficult as it is MMin starting 3rd degree.
brain said keep this simple, try to explain its same as Altered & MM
BTW Benson uses this he plays a major scale 1/2 step up & below which changes an altered/extensions. (not here now)
Kurt Rosewinkel spoke about this 14 years back a BM7b5 for a G7b5 but he used ( G alt scale)
as i said nothing new, dishearting is some players immediately diss. missing MY POINT, thinking i was talking maybe Lydian &
Melodic minor,
just another way of looking at the Altered scale & MMinor up 1/2 thats all it is.
Thanks to all for encouragement.
ps
To some brightsparks , This has f--- all to do with Lydian, Lydian is bii or #I not Vii
so please make certain you know what you are talking about.
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Reg's way of organizing, using what he calls "extended diatonic relationships" is really great way to organize fretboard generally , but ESPECIALLY when it comes to melodic minor.
So, you learn Gmelodic minor for GmMaj7.... with Bbmaj7#5 and Bb lyd#5 as an upper- extension-type relationship (like rootless 9th relationship), both physically and conceptually. .....and Em7b5 and E Locrian#2 as your down- a- third relationship (like a 6th chord relationship). you also then, very easily, begin to think of them as basically being all the same thing. just like May 4 the analogous relationship from Ionian: G major, B minor, E minor .
Anyway, when you do this with all chord types for melodic minor , you pretty quickly begin to see how they are all related physically to different chord types , how they relate to each OTHER, and also how they relate to diatonic chord relationships as well.
One of the better unintended results of this is that you find a legitimate application for otherwise obscure usages like a second-degree melodic minor. It's typically the least used mode of melodic minor , but you get equal reps with it when you're using it as an EXTENSION of the 4th degree or 7th degree etc.
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I think I actually do something like this but I don't quite understand Reg's way of looking it, seems to combine two things I would normally think of as separate.
I tend to map melodic minor as a variation of the dorian minor, I think, in so far as I think of it at all. The nat6 minor relates to the dominant by the relationship described above.
The George Russell theory I never dipped into (because I'd already checked out Warne Marsh and Russell's shoddy treatment of C# annoyed me :-) Also, weak logic bro). Lydian Augmented seems like a bit of redundant term... but there remains a discussion to be had about what the simplest and clearest mapping of these intervallic structures are on the guitar - I would always relate to major and minor (in the latter case mel min) rather than m7b5, 7#11, maj7#5 or anything like that. Familiar structures, simple language.
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(But obviously understanding that maj7#5, m7b5 and so on all relate to minor.)
Once that's understood, you should be able to switch back and forward.
The BIG difference between MM use and bebop, that I can think of, is that the melodic minor approach concerns itself with the 'extending' the basic dominant, m7b5, alt sounds, while traditional bebop and post-swing kind of represents these as basically already in a state of dissonance needing resolution to a target chord.
You can see some early divergences from this - A Train springs to mind, but AFAIK Duke didn't view the D7#11 chord as lydian dominant, more whole tone. 7#11 was already pretty popular by the 40s as a general dominant chord colour. (It had already been pretty common in jazz in it's classical function as a French Sixth, and obviously had been around in Western Music before that.)
(In fact, come to think of it, the whole tone fulfils a similar role to the melodic minor for earlier jazz....)
Anyway, I think the prehistory of harmonic use of MM modes (As opposed to melodic use where the major 7 is a passing tone) may be found in the practice of substituting important (V) minor on dominant (certainly a thing by the 30s if not earlier) and then the bebop practice of leaning on the major V triad of that minor (for instance Barry's ending on the 3rd in a minor key).
That gives the ONLY characteristic harmonic note of the MM - the raised seventh - in a situation where it can be heard against the comping chord.
This V of V thing might seem confusing, but it's really not if you are used to relating minors to dominants and have lines that end up on the V triad of the minor. Basically, you play your usual minor language on the dominant... This is of course how Pat Martino teaches.
This ends up being V of V basically a triad pair (up a 2nd) on vanilla dominant and the b6 major triad on the tritone or altered dominant. Common choices that still sound 'modern' today. i.e.
C7 - G minor - D triad - C9#11
C7b5 - TRITONE's minor - Ab triad - Bb triad --> C7#5#9
And for m7b5 (m7b5is a m6 with a 6 in the bass - Dizzy & Barry)
Cm7b5 - Eb minor - Bb triad --> Cm11b5 (nat9)
(see Bill Evans, Beautiful Love.)
This doesn't need to be thought of as a 'melodic minor' though I would shrug my shoulders in this case and accept that reading because it seems perverse not to, but be careful not to mention it in front of a Barry Harris acolyte.
Now the realisation that melodic minor voicings are completely interchangeable - I wonder where that comes from? It's clever...
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Heya that clears up what are talking about a little better.
Originally Posted by Durban
I’ll give it a try when I get to a guitar
Obviously B Lydian augmented sound related to G7 altered but the use of the B scale provides a different emPHAsis
Actually a lot of music is about emPHAsis innit. That’s what jazz is at its basis.
Btw I often play Bmaj7 (natural 5) against G7. This is extra fun because of the F#. The B resolving up a half step to C is a great move.
B7 is also great.
If the F# bothers you, you can raise the 5 to a #5, but then you got a G, which is a common tone to C. Reduces the cadential efficiency.
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The chord-scale thing is distinctly limited by its nature and it represents the lowest level of knowledge...”Gee-whiz, I found some “correct” notes”. So what? My goal as an improviser is to be able to use all 12 notes convincingly over any grouping of intervals (chords).
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If you use the "chord scale thing" like that, you're not using it correctly anyway. Originally Posted by jsaras
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I tried the Bmaj7#4 thing on G7 going to Cmaj7. It is very Kurt.
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BTW Durban do you have a link?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
No i am in hospital, in an article from way way back, 2002-2003 ish will
Thing is load of people play this, and have different names for it etc.
Benson uses this all the time trust me, i cant give example at mo. Richie Hart can tell you,
Eg A Maj over a Bb etc just remember by using a different scale/chord as a sub will produce slightly difernt
extensions.
Like you mentioned Dmm over G7 yeah perfect fine sounds great always, but it only has 1 altered extension the b5.
Christian i mentioned ALL the extensions that really is not necessary , in fact most of the Sco's Herbie etc
dont use all the altered or (rarely). It is better (Opinion) to perhaps use one or two really effectively.
there are not rules on this is its largely taste. When i was playing a lot i would often use straight mixo
but played as a lydian all this does is make you play from rg Eb if V is F7, so you are immediately
into bluesy 9 13 b7 etc same notes just different emphasis, yes no altered notes but you can slip in chromo notes if you want, the thing is it always sounds good,
i did mention cant recall Wes often played eg AbM over Bb7 type thing it also sounds great ( especially when he did) & why he sounds bluesy, simple devices, but super tasty,
i did another post check it out.
Very often it is simple things that are great, often names /terminology gets in the way, making it seem complicated,
99% of What Benson plays is pretty simple. ( i dont mean his technique) it is how he treats and apply it
for a start his phrasing like Grant Wes etc killer. GB uses a lot of simple subs, but when played over another chord can sound complicated.
cheers
Did not mean to Imply playing Benson was easy or i could do that, at mo could not play a D cowboy chord.
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#4? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The 10,000 jazz books written on chord scales all apparently missed something. Perhaps it’s book 10,001 that will finally reveal that one magic thing
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07-14-2018, 02:09 PM #17Jkniff26 GuestEdited and probably does not relate now but: I remember Kurt suggesting trying it, well in this context it would be BMaj7#11 against C#7. Same difference because obviously G7-C#7 are tritone pairs or whatever. Anyway he was explaining it as a concept to use on Giant Steps. Changing all the dominants to Maj7#11 a whole step below. Pretty sure memory is correct. Like for example Bmaj7#11 is also an inverted rootless C#7(6-9) or some shit, and in Durban’s context it is rootless G7(#9 #5) .....For Giant Steps it opens up stuff for me a lot. Sorry if I am mistaken, I usually just lurk on these theory threads when I need inspiration for a nap. Originally Posted by christianm77
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Jkniff26; 07-14-2018 at 02:52 PM.
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I wish I could understand this thread better.
If it's all Gmelmin, why think about the other chords generated from stacks of thirds, like, say Bbmaj7#5?
It seems to me that Gmelmin gives you a pool of notes to use as, say, a starting point. You need to know the notes in the Gmelmin scale, which I sometimes think of as "all white keys, but Bb and F#".
When the tune gets to a chord for which you want to use some of those notes, you can find them.
And, if you want extensions for a dominant chord, if you know the chord tones and the altered 5s and 9s for that dominant chord, you can pick the notes you want easily enough.
I first learned that I could apply Gmelmin on a tonic Gm, usually the minmaj7 or m6. Then I learned I could use it as a an altered scale against a Gb7. Then I learned that I could use it as a lyd dominant against a C7. Then against m7b5 a minor third up. I learned to distinguish situations in which alt vs lyd dom were used.
Later, Mark Levine's book showed me that they were all the same chord and could be used interchangeably. Which I now think is almost true.
Still later, I learned to apply it to the maj7#5, although that doesn't come up much and it may be easier to think major scale and sharp the 5.
So, in reading this thread I end up confused ... why is it helpful to think about the melmin scale from a different root?
Actually, I feel more or less the same way about thinking about the major scale from different roots. My feeing is that, if you know the chord tones and you know the tonal center, you already have the sound. The trick is to think of the scale as an unordered pool of notes, not an A B C D etc sequence.
Would anybody be kind enough to explain what I'm missing here?
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Would that be the BMaj7#11 arpeggio and if so would we include both the E and the F or just the E? I mean both would work, but what does Kurt do? Originally Posted by Jkniff26
I may have to take another look at Trane changes, it's been a while....
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Its just another way of organizing sounds...you're not a "scale thinker." Some folks see it that way clearer...that's all. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Access points.
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07-14-2018, 02:50 PM #21Jkniff26 GuestYea i totally was thinking maj7#11 and saying #5. That’s why i don’t talk theory much. Probably would have caught it with a guitar but I was laying in the shade Originally Posted by christianm77
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07-14-2018, 03:05 PM #22Jkniff26 GuestFor me no e in bmaj7#11. I was talking chord not necessarily a scale idea. Have not transcribed Kurt. It was just a concept I remember. Sorry Christian. The chord roots would be different on Giants Steps obviously. This was just a concept example Originally Posted by christianm77
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I refuse to identify with 'you guys.' How dare you sir. HOW VERY DARE YOU! Originally Posted by djg
You'll be telling me you can sub IVm for V7 and that the 4 isn't an avoid note over a dominant next.
This forum, man... phew...
Yeah I already do a lot of that stuff generally (family of four relationships, IV on V is one of my favourite things and yes I think of it as Wes, but IVm on V as Charlie Christian, anyhoo... )....giant steps is a fun tune to practise your subs. you can go all wes and replace the V chords with IV chords or got all martino and replace all chords with minor chords. that way you can make nice use of the various hidden symmetries.
like:
pairs:
Bmaj Cmaj7 Gmaj7 Abmaj7 Ebmaj7 etc. or
G#min7 Am7 Em7 Fm7 Cm7 etc
also try replacing some I chords with III chords, you can play nice mccoy tyner stuff over GS with this concept.
G#min7 Am7 Bm7 Cm7 (replacing Fm7) Dm7 (replacing Ebmaj- it's b5 actually- but it still works)
or the old whole-tone trick
Bmaj7 Am7 Gmaj7 Fm7 Ebmaj7 etc.
It's a nice symmetry on giant steps...
GS isn't something I've practiced for a while... I spent about two years doing it 2007-8 religiously, and my housemates from that period think of me as 'the Giant Steps guy.'
But really, the mount Everest of changes is Conception. That tune is freakish...
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
matt the #4 or b5 was a separate thing i mentioned to christian that Kurt R likes
eg BMaj7b5 for G7b5
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Yes, correct, Benson being what he is, has that rhythmic slant to everything, which can justify (for want of words) playing , i cant find words at the mo, best analogy is playing avoid 4th in major scale how long one lingers on it, (Taste) it is regarded as a avoid note, not in my book & Jerry Bergonzi anyway you get my drift. Originally Posted by djg
the A over Bb re Benson his way of forcing or whatever just works.
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