How do you spontaneously improvise bebop lines?

[BigNick21]

I practice bebop scale exercises, scale patterns, arpeggios, connecting the scales/arpeggios over the chords in standards, licks in all 12 keys, transcription, and I've learned about 20 standards. The bebop lines still don't come out when I solo. I don't play a lot of notes when I solo, and play in lyrical, melodic, and minimalistic phrases. There's nothing wrong with being a lyrical player, but it's also important to know how to play busier lines. They say to not think while you improvise, but how do you not think when you play bebop phrases in a solo? Is it all from what you hear? How do you "get yourself" to hear bebop lines?

[henryrobinett]

Listen. Listen. Listen.


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[mr. beaumont]

Yep, listen.

When it becomes the music that plays in your head, it's not that hard at all.

No exercise, book, video, leson etc. will make up for hours and hours of listening.

But nobody wants to hear that as an answer, so here's a quick way to fake it til ya make it.

Look at what you're playing now...you say you don't play a lot of notes...ok, cool. So add some.

Look at enclosures and chromatic approaches to the notes you are playing. Bebop is not rocket science.

[Jazzstdnt]

Yes, as Henry and Jeff said. It's the same with any musical "language" - jazz, rock, blues, bluegrass, whatever.

1. You have to listen so much that you can't get the stuff out of your head.
But
2. You also have to play your tunes, solos, patterns and routines so much that your ear and you fingers agree - you can't stop playing or hearing bebop, bebop, bebop.

So, there is a time commitment to both of the above, but it doesn't need to be crammed into a short period. Just start and don't stop.

Every single day.

[cosmic gumbo]

Imitate, assimilate, innovate.

Learn some of the masters' solos, same as pursuing improv skills in blues, rock, and country.

[christianm77]

That's a good question. A good short answer is "Barry Harris."

But generally? Well these things help me, some general, some specific:

1) Compose as well as improvise and don't be afraid to work stuff out. I think people can be a bit black and white with regard to composition/improvisation. In fact, if you are improvising at fast tempos you will basically be constructing lines in modules of several notes, not each note in turn.

2) Develop a very good relationship with your instrument. Learn how to access scales, triads and arpeggios in every position. Running scale outlines Barry Harris style is a very good way to prepare a tune in this way.
Which leads to 3)

3) Cultivate flexibility. Don't practice set licks or lines only, but find ways to vary them. Try each phrase on a different beat or off beat. Try extending or shortening the phrase. Stick the whole thing up a third. Tritone substitute the phrase or turn into a backdoor (bVII7.) Etc etc. Be creative. You'll be surprised the mileage you can get from just a couple of ideas.

4) Modular harmony. Don't think Dm7 G7 C, think G7 C, and play embellishments of that basic harmony, subs, scales, neighbour tones etc etc. So you might outline Fmaj7 Db9 Bo7 C or something, but you are relating that all to G7 --> C.

Rhythm Changes A section is like three chords, I IV7 V7.

5) Learn how to link a dominant to a target chord using the diminished arpeggio.

6) Minor ii-V = backdoor + dim connection. That is to say Dm7b5 G7 Cm = Bb9 Bo7 Cm. This is deep and will help you unlock a lot of stuff.

7) Never think of a m7b5 as a m7b5. Think of it as minor or dominant, so you can apply familiar material on it. So Am7b5 = F9 = Cm6. That's where 6) comes from. Think about it.

8) You use the dominant scale (mixolydian) and subs 90% of the time. Let the dominant DOMINATE. No one wants to hear the I. If you play V on I all the Berklee grads will think you are playing 'extended harmony.'

9) Listen and copy phrases. Obviously you do this with heads, and that's probably the best place to start because you'll be able to play them on gigs, but also learn language and ideas from them.

10) It's a virtuous feedback loop - listening feeds into theory and vice versa.

11) Melodic minor modes are not really worth worrying about for bop.

12) Above all - RHYTHM - bebop scales, enclosures, all of that, are rhythmic devices as much as harmonic.

[christianm77]

Oh the biggest thing, and to remember if you couldn't be bothered to wade through me last post

It takes a long time for the stuff you practice to show up in your actual playing.

Consequently - don't worry about what you do on the bandstand. Only concern yourself with the preparation you do in the practice room.

[henryrobinett]

Excellent stuff Christian!


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[grahambop]

Listen to Dexter Gordon for several years, that's what I did.

[BigNick21]

Much appreciated, Christian! This is sage advice! I'll take note of all of this.

[princeplanet]

Time to put in a few hundred hours working on stuff like this:

[Sam Sherry]

I practice bebop scale exercises, scale patterns, arpeggios, connecting the scales/arpeggios over the chords in standards, licks in all 12 keys, transcription, and I've learned about 20 standards. The bebop lines still don't come out when I solo . . . How do you "get yourself" to hear bebop lines?

By and large, you can't improvise what you don't hear. So don't just practice and don't just listen. Practice having bebop between your ears!

To do that, remove the instrument. Walk around the block, think a bebop solo, sing a bebop solo. Wash dishes, think a bebop solo, sing a bebop solo. Exercise, think a bebop solo. When you do that you are practicing hearing fast and practicing thinking bebop.

One week, man. One week of big-time bebop thought and you WILL be playing differently. Not as different as after a couple of years but still different.

[princeplanet]

[QUOTE=christianm77;879966]

.... 11) Melodic minor modes are not really worth worrying about for bop .....

Is this considered contentious?

[christianm77]

[QUOTE=princeplanet;880074]

.... 11) Melodic minor modes are not really worth worrying about for bop .....

Is this considered contentious?

Probably, but this is something I have learned from Barry and he is quite good at bebop.

Melodic minor doesn’t even exist as a concept in Barry Harris’s teaching.

Ergo we can do without it.

[henryrobinett]

I used melodic minors a lot as altered not that’d you’d ever know. I rarely play scales or straight scales. They’re all subverted somehow.


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[princeplanet]

[QUOTE=christianm77;880078]

Probably, but this is something I have learned from Barry and he is quite good at bebop.

Melodic minor doesn’t even exist as a concept in Barry Harris’s teaching.

Ergo we can do without it.

I seem to recall the discussion come up in the past on the forum, seems some peeps feel Parker must have been thinking alt scale for some of his lines, others feel it's just plain old dom chord embellishment.... Regardless, when do we think MM modes were first introduced in people's lines, and who started it? I'm mainly into Hard bop and early post bop and am trying to avoid the sound of the alt scale, all 4 tensions can be too much! I like 2 or 3, as for which 2 or 3, I find mixing 'em up a lot keeps it interesting. I also prefer HW or whole tone based lines to full alt, so yeah, maybe leaving MM modes (especially Alt) alone for a while can help us all

[christianm77]

I seem to recall the discussion come up in the past on the forum, seems some peeps feel Parker must have been thinking alt scale for some of his lines, others feel it's just plain old dom chord embellishment....

The fact that you can understand it just as various types of dominant embellishment means to me that we can jettison the whole MM thing and simplify the core syllabus a bit.

Also unless someone can track the altered scale to some mainstream musical literature from the 30s or 40s, seems unlikely Parker would have thought this way. It's not really a concept in classical harmony, for instance, although some have found uses of the scale in Ravel.

Regardless, when do we think MM modes were first introduced in people's lines, and who started it? I'm mainly into Hard bop and early post bop and am trying to avoid the sound of the alt scale, all 4 tensions can be too much! I like 2 or 3, as for which 2 or 3, I find mixing 'em up a lot keeps it interesting. I also prefer HW or whole tone based lines to full alt, so yeah, maybe leaving MM modes (especially Alt) alone for a while can help us all

Oh god, now you are asking. Herb Pomeroy?

I mean it's always an impossible question as to what musicians were thinking when they played a harmony, but one that stands out to me is Bill Evan's use of a D/D+ triad on Em7b5 in Beautiful Love. Locrian #2 US triad, right? Who knows what he called it.

The altered scale interpretation of bop - to me is a combination of elements of the following:

The most common is simply constructing lines on the diatonic minor scales (or backdoor dominant) which gives all the extensions in the altered scale apart from b5. A lot of 'altered' stuff is found in the minor key. For instance Abm(maj7) and Abm6 on G7. Natural minor on V7 gives '#9'.

b5 is most commonly accessed via tritone sub, which is often as simple as putting a tritone sub major triad. This is is not, in fact, something we see in the altered scale.

Common melodic devices, on G7-C, for instance, Bb Ab G F (E) and B Bb Ab G F (E) do fit the G altered scale, but can be understood as belonging to C minor or in the latter case, Db7 is a little more likely. In any case, it's only four or five notes.

Whole tone is common, and very similar to the altered in many ways. I think idiomatically dim scale is derived from LNTs on the dim7 rather than a harmonic sound in it's own right? Bill Evans on Oleo, for instance.

[christianm77]

In other news has anyone checked out what the guys do on the original recording of All Blues? Now there's a tune where altered always sounds off to me...

[princeplanet]

The fact that you can understand it just as various types of dominant embellishment means to me that we can jettison the whole MM thing and simplify the core syllabus a bit.

Also unless someone can track the altered scale to some mainstream musical literature from the 30s or 40s, seems unlikely Parker would have thought this way. It's not really a concept in classical harmony, for instance, although some have found uses of the scale in Ravel.



Oh god, now you are asking. Herb Pomeroy?

I mean it's always an impossible question as to what musicians were thinking when they played a harmony, but one that stands out to me is Bill Evan's use of a D/D+ triad on Em7b5 in Beautiful Love. Locrian #2 US triad, right? Who knows what he called it.

The altered scale interpretation of bop - to me is a combination of elements of the following:

The most common is simply constructing lines on the diatonic minor scales (or backdoor dominant) which gives all the extensions in the altered scale apart from b5. A lot of 'altered' stuff is found in the minor key. For instance Abm(maj7) and Abm6 on G7. Natural minor on V7 gives '#9'.

b5 is most commonly accessed via tritone sub, which is often as simple as putting a tritone sub major triad. This is is not, in fact, something we see in the altered scale.

Common melodic devices, on G7-C, for instance, Bb Ab G F (E) and B Bb Ab G F (E) do fit the G altered scale, but can be understood as belonging to C minor or in the latter case, Db7 is a little more likely. In any case, it's only four or five notes.

Whole tone is common, and very similar to the altered in many ways. I think idiomatically dim scale is derived from LNTs on the dim7 rather than a harmonic sound in it's own right? Bill Evans on Oleo, for instance.

Nice, cheers. When you want to, you certainly can put things very succinctly!

[princeplanet]

In other news has anyone checked out what the guys do on the original recording of All Blues? Now there's a tune where altered always sounds off to me...

... maybe a little too succinct here? Care to follow up?

[joelr]

It's a lot like blues, you have a pent scale but you don't practice it that much, you jump right in learning licks.
Forget alt stuff for a second, there are a bunch of basic licks used over min7/dom7 chords that you can create variations on that can take you a long way.
If you go through solos you see very similar ideas used over and over. If you practice those and practice chaining them together and playing through changes then they will become part of your playing.
Then use the same lines but as a tri-tone sub and you get altered lines.

Along the way you can work on adding approach notes, passing tones, different fragments of scales and arpeggio subs, plus whatever modern ideas you get into, it never ends.
Take a few basic lines for min7/dom7 and play them in different keys and work on creating variations.
If you need ideas for basic lines here are some with tab:

As to melodic minor, Jimmy Bruno doesn't use it, he just plays dorian and raises the 7.

Personally I like trying to work the scale in. On min7 it's not hard to visualize and on min7b5 you can just think mm up a minor 3rd,
(for Emin7b5 play G minor stuff) Bill Evans does that often.
But on alt dom I like to practice say - G altered as Ab melodic minor. Then I work on seeing it as G alt dom and also as Db lydianb7.
I also like to work with triads and 7th arpeggios so Abmin/maj7 arp, Bb pent minor, G aug triad (plus different tensions b9, #9, #4)
Db/Eb triads, Db and G aug triads, Fmin7b5, Abmin/Bbmin triad pair. Even F and G dim triad pair.

All that stuff is fun to practice and anything I discover I can use on the Emin7b5 and Db7#11 (lydianb7) also.
I have a whole video on interesting shapes just found in mel min and those can be used on any of those chords. As well as Abmin7 which you can just change to be a Abmin/maj7.

Once you get good at mel min, my experience is that I started finding all kinds of new shapes and sounds and ideas that I wasn't finding in plain dorian.
It's a very symmetrical scale and it lays out in an interesting way. You could look at it in different ways but C lydian b7 for example -
is C7#11, D7add11 = (it's tensions from a C7#11), Emin7b5/F#min7b5 = same , Gmin/maj7 /Amin = more C7 #11 stuff, Bbmaj7#5 = it's D7 plus Daug , again upper structure C7 #11 sounds.
It's fun to explore it that way.

another neat symmetry - aug, min, min , aug, maj (dom7/9), maj (dom7/9), min7b5, min7b5
of course those min and maj chords are related as they share the same II-V and the min7b5 are upper structure versions of those dom7 chords. So in a way it's all one big chord. The triad pairs are very cool sounding too, especially C and Daug.
But in F#alt dom I would think of it as Cmaj/F#aug.

[princeplanet]

It's a lot like blues, you have a pent scale but you don't practice it that much, you jump right in learning licks.
Forget alt stuff for a second, there are a bunch of basic licks used over min7/dom7 chords that you can create variations on that can take you a long way.
If you go through solos you see very similar ideas used over and over. If you practice those and practice chaining them together and playing through changes then they will become part of your playing.
Then use the same lines but as a tri-tone sub and you get altered lines.

Along the way you can work on adding approach notes, passing tones, different fragments of scales and arpeggio subs, plus whatever modern ideas you get into, it never ends.
Take a few basic lines for min7/dom7 and play them in different keys and work on creating variations.
If you need ideas for basic lines here are some with tab:

As to melodic minor, Jimmy Bruno doesn't use it, he just plays dorian and raises the 7.

Personally I like trying to work the scale in. On min7 it's not hard to visualize and on min7b5 you can just think mm up a minor 3rd,
(for Emin7b5 play G minor stuff) Bill Evans does that often.
But on alt dom I like to practice say - G altered as Ab melodic minor. Then I work on seeing it as G alt dom and also as Db lydianb7.
I also like to work with triads and 7th arpeggios so Abmin/maj7 arp, Bb pent minor, G aug triad (plus different tensions b9, #9, #4)
Db/Eb triads, Db and G aug triads, Fmin7b5, Abmin/Bbmin triad pair. Even F and G dim triad pair.

All that stuff is fun to practice and anything I discover I can use on the Emin7b5 and Db7#11 (lydianb7) also.
I have a whole video on interesting shapes just found in mel min and those can be used on any of those chords. As well as Abmin7 which you can just change to be a Abmin/maj7.

Once you get good at mel min, my experience is that I started finding all kinds of new shapes and sounds and ideas that I wasn't finding in plain dorian.
It's a very symmetrical scale and it lays out in an interesting way. You could look at it in different ways but C lydian b7 for example -
is C7#11, D7add11 = (it's tensions from a C7#11), Emin7b5/F#min7b5 = same , Gmin/maj7 /Amin = more C7 #11 stuff, Bbmaj7#5 = it's D7 plus Daug , again upper structure C7 #11 sounds.
It's fun to explore it that way.

another neat symmetry - aug, min, min , aug, maj (dom7/9), maj (dom7/9), min7b5, min7b5
of course those min and maj chords are related as they share the same II-V and the min7b5 are upper structure versions of those dom7 chords. So in a way it's all one big chord. The triad pairs are very cool sounding too, especially C and Daug.
But in F#alt dom I would think of it as Cmaj/F#aug.

A lot to unpack here, perhaps too much at once for the OP, but all good stuff. Watched your video, might have done with some editing too though. Just a question, if you don't mind the impertinence, are these videos meant for instruction? Or to show off your chops? Just that I find a lot of bedroom video tutorials seem to pre occupied in proving to the would be learner that the teacher can play. Maybe ease up a little on the gratuitous shredding?

[joelr]

These videos are for all sorts of purposes that's why I usually start with a little playing but post the start time of the lesson so you can skip over that. But the playing section is playing - showing off chops, showing off melodic ideas, everything. But the playing is related to the lesson topic as well

But once the lesson starts I do edit the videos and add text so it's a real lesson. It's also loaded with content and examples and tips, I put work into the lesson section. Once the lesson starts it's lesson time.
There is also tab linked in the video description with every lesson.
I really enjoy teaching and am not doing much of it lately so doing instructional videos is a lot of fun. I want to demonstrate my playing as well as I learn new things. I also want to demonstrate my teaching skills. I like to pass on knowledge and skills as well. The more videos I do I'll probably break performance videos and lesson videos into separate videos but initially I feel like you've got to market yourself a bit.

Thanks for watching!

[christianm77]

... maybe a little too succinct here? Care to follow up?

I’m not going to do all the work for you ;-) have a listen to what the players do on those chords. IIRC none of them use the altered option.

[christianm77]

It's a lot like blues, you have a pent scale but you don't practice it that much, you jump right in learning licks.
Forget alt stuff for a second, there are a bunch of basic licks used over min7/dom7 chords that you can create variations on that can take you a long way.
If you go through solos you see very similar ideas used over and over. If you practice those and practice chaining them together and playing through changes then they will become part of your playing.
Then use the same lines but as a tri-tone sub and you get altered lines.

Along the way you can work on adding approach notes, passing tones, different fragments of scales and arpeggio subs, plus whatever modern ideas you get into, it never ends.
Take a few basic lines for min7/dom7 and play them in different keys and work on creating variations.
If you need ideas for basic lines here are some with tab:

As to melodic minor, Jimmy Bruno doesn't use it, he just plays dorian and raises the 7.

Personally I like trying to work the scale in. On min7 it's not hard to visualize and on min7b5 you can just think mm up a minor 3rd,
(for Emin7b5 play G minor stuff) Bill Evans does that often.
But on alt dom I like to practice say - G altered as Ab melodic minor. Then I work on seeing it as G alt dom and also as Db lydianb7.
I also like to work with triads and 7th arpeggios so Abmin/maj7 arp, Bb pent minor, G aug triad (plus different tensions b9, #9, #4)
Db/Eb triads, Db and G aug triads, Fmin7b5, Abmin/Bbmin triad pair. Even F and G dim triad pair.

All that stuff is fun to practice and anything I discover I can use on the Emin7b5 and Db7#11 (lydianb7) also.
I have a whole video on interesting shapes just found in mel min and those can be used on any of those chords. As well as Abmin7 which you can just change to be a Abmin/maj7.

Once you get good at mel min, my experience is that I started finding all kinds of new shapes and sounds and ideas that I wasn't finding in plain dorian.
It's a very symmetrical scale and it lays out in an interesting way. You could look at it in different ways but C lydian b7 for example -
is C7#11, D7add11 = (it's tensions from a C7#11), Emin7b5/F#min7b5 = same , Gmin/maj7 /Amin = more C7 #11 stuff, Bbmaj7#5 = it's D7 plus Daug , again upper structure C7 #11 sounds.
It's fun to explore it that way.

another neat symmetry - aug, min, min , aug, maj (dom7/9), maj (dom7/9), min7b5, min7b5
of course those min and maj chords are related as they share the same II-V and the min7b5 are upper structure versions of those dom7 chords. So in a way it's all one big chord. The triad pairs are very cool sounding too, especially C and Daug.
But in F#alt dom I would think of it as Cmaj/F#aug.

Raise the 7 - that’s how I’d teach it.... good to be vindicated (I haven’t studied Bruno’s stuff)

whether you see the scale as ii (Dorian) or v (dominant) is a matter of taste. The Dorian option makes it easier to incorporate the melodic minor perhaps. I tend to think of the lower neighbour tone of the important minor (the arp/scale on degree 5 of dominant) which might be a bit complicated.

Now, having said Barry Harris doesn’t do the mm modes thing, I am curious to just how he’d interpret the first two bars of the bridge of Parker’s solo on Moose the Mooche as I do see that phrase as a very good example of the use of the melodic minor in bop.

On the first chord (let’s say D7 for the sake of simplicity) he plays an extended arpeggio with a G in and then a G#.

This note is Harmonic - that is it doesn’t resolve by step, unlike many other instances of this type of note in bop. Also there is a G# at the end of the phrase.

Jimmy’s ‘raise the 7’ thing works perfectly here - we think A Dorian with the 7 raised to G# (ie melodic minor) Not sure how Barry would view that. Anyone?