-
I think I understand the theme of consistent organization of variations, if that's what you're talking about.
Originally Posted by Reg
So, if you play an unexpected note you will surround it with other notes that have a consistent underlying logic, and therefore, hopefully, make a musical statement that others can feel.
There are players I love who think that way, or, at least, that's my impression.
If I could/would head in that direction, I'd have to learn it one sound at a time, laboriously. And, I'd have to get the sounds in my ears to the point where I could make them happen without conscious thought. I have a vocabulary that vaguely fits that description, and I'm always looking to expand it. But, I know, from 50+ years of playing and studying that it's a slow process for me.
I tend to think of them in terms of juxaposition, so, for example, I know that if a Gdom is resolving to C, I can play Galt or an arp on Abmelmin to get a certain sound. Or, more commonly, I know that I can play, iim V7 vim or maybe viim7b5 interchangeably. I also know that I can think Db9, Bbm and a few other things -- except, that, if I actually think about any of that during a solo, the next thing I play will be the worst part of the solo.
As far as not being boring, I find that it's possible to put drama in a solo without needing to be a harmonic genius. I like BB King and Santana almost as much as I like Jim Hall and Wes. I try to do it with tone, wide shifts in volume and intensity during a solo, building drama with high notes, or sometimes low notes, melodic lines, repetition and, honestly, not taking more choruses than I can keep interesting. I don't do guitar trio gigs for that reason. I know I can't keep an audience interested all night. But, then again, I once walked out of a George Benson gig because I was bored -- and I like George. I think of Jim Hall as a guitar deity, but I found myself bored towards the end of a trio show of his with Don Thompson on bass. Maybe I'm easily bored. Add a piano or a horn and I can be transfixed all night.
I pay a lot of attention to groove because I think that's really what an audience responds to - I watch to make sure the audience is tapping their feet and I'm unhappy if they aren't. If I could improve one single thing only about my playing it wouldn't be harmony, it would be time-feel.
I may very well have not understood your post. As always, concrete examples work best for me. For me, it would have to be one sound at a time.
-
06-30-2018 06:42 PM
-
I think of it as an old sound when the movement is dim7 to a major triad or maj6th (e.g. the opening to Maple Leaf Rag) but not so much when both the dim7 and resolution major chord contain a major 7th. The first bar of You've Changed is often played with those same changes. Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Yea rpjazz.... you sound like you have your sound, style etc... and it works. And maybe Lick style of examples might catch you ear... connecting different style and sound of licks.... memory type of connections.
All I can say is.... If your one of those great players.... you can make anything great etc... I'm not... I'm a groove player... I have tons of chops and can have conversations while performing... but get bored with myself all the time. I get asked to turn up and keep soloing... and will entertain etc...but I have more fun and enjoy working with a killin rhythm section, Never really wanted to be star etc...
That's part of the reason I'm always pushing guitarist to be better musicians ... soloing is cool, but unless you just dig standing on stage, there is more. Developing comping skills will help open and connect your ears with organized harmonic concepts. Like how you approach soloing... but with chords, and like you can hear and use certain ear trained sounds melodically... comping can be the same thing and you'll begin to hear chordal movement etc... which will help ears become to hear more harmonic types of movement with different organizations.
Same thing you only need to think... if you choose to.
All good... I'll try and put some examples together... I need to go do some of that standing on stage BS.
-
Let's hijack the thread and discuss comping. Same thing about time feel. You can't comp great without great time feel. No amount of harmonic sophistication will make up for it, at least for groove based jazz, which is what I'm interested in. I work on it all the time -- and it's a hard thing to work on. Many say that practicing with a metronome will improve your time. I can't say that that worked for me. I'm not at all convinced that the metronome is helpful for feel. My guess is that it's irrelevant or maybe, for some, a negative. One player in a group with great time feel can make it better for everyone. Originally Posted by Reg
To the extent that I have made any progress with feel, it's from constantly reminding myself not to get passive. And, from playing with the best players I can. I might have made a little headway by playing hand percussion instruments. Not sure.
Turning now to harmony:
Mechanics aside, it's about what you can hear in your mind. If you can conceptualize a sound, you'll eventually be able to get it under your fingers. If you can't really hear it in your mind, maybe knowing the math of how to find the chord will help, but it's no substitute.
My goal in comping is not Freddie Green. It's more Jim Hall and a pianist named Ralph Sharon. These guys didn't just strum or pound chords. Rather, they constructed parts. I don't know if counterpoint is technically the correct term -- but it was a part, with harmonic logic, great voice leading and was melodic enough to stand alone -- without getting in the way of the soloist. Jim often played just a note or two, used lots of space/silence. I love that type of comping, but it's hard to do with a piano in the band. Unless the pianist is really willing to lay back and let the guitar dominate the comping. My experience is that some pianists do it intuitively and others just can't imagine it. Without a piano, I love comping with a combination of full chords, single note lines and two and three note things. Conceptualized that way, it isn't so different from soloing, although in comping you're trying to support the soloist -- in soloing you're trying to lead.
Fastest way to get there: arguable. My guess is the traditional way may be best -- transcribe and match the feel. Theory helps after you've got a bunch in your ears maybe to make it easier to remember or think about. There have been great players who knew absolutely zero theory, but there's never been a great player without a good ear and good time.
-
rpjazz...you saved this thread..its so good to be able to know what someone is talking about..I have some similar takes on comping..depending on context..trio..or more..backing a singer..and tempo of course..I try and lay back and let the melody hang and reinstate fragments over different chords or move it in a pattern and repeat it in a different octave and use inversions of the cadence so the feel of release is a bit unexpected..and hopefully new to the listener..
-
Relationships are useful. Imagine if every note we played was conceived of as a singular event.
This would not be a good thing. Music would be truly challenging.
In relationships the appearance of one note suggests a possible connection to a set of affiliate notes.
Note collections include intervals, chord/arpeggio, scales, note combinations generated by intervals,
tonal area, common function, chord pairs, scale pair, Jordan's triad +1 structures, chord and approach chord(s),
bebop scales, Barry Harris scales, etc.
Practicing a given note collection, teaches us the sound of the intervals and the associated physical shapes.
These sounds and shapes are likely to appear in other note collections and future music making encounters.
Each building block internalized makes the next ones easier.
Modes offer a good diverse set of chordal/melodic interval combinations.
It is not the only organizational game in town but it does offer an excellent one stop shop for many common
harmonic sounds. It also presents many variants of harmonies orbiting around a tonal target.
Mastering any given note collection is no guarantee that anything particularly musical will miraculously
emerge from our fingers. The musician who can make a statement with one or two notes is better prepared
to create something good out of 5, 7 or 12 notes. Mastering a given note collection does however unmask
a set of potentially useful musical relationships to instigate or respond to.Last edited by bako; 06-30-2018 at 11:21 PM.
-
CST is primarily useful for understanding music written and improvised by people who know CST.
Was it ever intended to be a descriptive theory of music? Or an evolution of existing practices.
There’s a CST sound anyway. I usually know when I hear an improvisor working primarily from a cst perspective, they sound a certain way. In its own way I find it kind of vanilla.
It’s most powerful imo when added to an existing toolset by a musician who can already play. I don’t see a fundamental conflict between cst and anything else, but as a entry point in jazz improvisation it has some real problems.
-
My own personal view is there are extended chord sounds and there are one octave 7 note scales scales and it doesn’t always make sense to equate the two.
Stable extended harmonies can be derived from one octave scales, but many scales do not parent stable extended harmonies and in this the CST concept of avoid notes is rather simplistic.
I’m also sceptical of the need to plonk a Greek label on an extended harmony and put it in one octave.
For instance the Warne Marsh approach to an extended sound was to spell it out as a stack of thirds and then join the notes together with diatonic passing tones. This seems more intelligent than me, because it acknowledges the difference between a 4 and an 11 say.
-
I'm still working through the Melodic Shapes book, and I've noticed a few interesting things.
Of course, there is always a question about how much this generalizes, but I don't know how to address that. The authors refer to functional jazz harmony. A reviewer refers to bop and hard bop as applications.
The lines are almost all on ii V I. And, the book does have some brief material on symmetric and altered scales. Also some material on chromaticism.
I think the altered scale is included because it covers the altered 5ths (sorry, #11 and b13) and 9ths. They didn't bother with all the different names of various combinations of altered 11, 5s and 9s. They cover chromaticism because they're constantly using it. I'm not sure yet why they covered the dim scale separately. It could be considered both alt 9s, with a natural 6 and no #5.
The lines do conform to these ideas, more or less.
But, the note choices are way more varied than I've been playing. So, for example, if I was practicing a 7#11 lick, I would probably not play the natural 11 in the same phrase. Or, if I was playing b9 and #9, I'd probably omit the 10th. I probably wouldn't start a line against Dm7 with an F# or a D#. If I was specifically trying to make a G13b9 sound, I'd probably feel obligated to play an E.
Silly me. The lines in the book break each one of these "rules" and sound great. It's pretty much any note against any chord -- with the lines being strong enough melodically to make the ear accept it.
The oft heard question, "what scale should I play over that chord?" seems irrelevant as I work through this material.
What does seem relevant is to understand that any note can work against any chord, as long as the overall line is strong. It is also obvious that there are chord tones, consonant extensions (notes in the tonal center) and less consonant extensions. The material doesn't seem to have a category for "avoid" notes although a few intervals are a lot less likely to appear on strong beats (eg not many cases of nat 7 against dom7, although there are some). There is a very nice line which hits C against G7 on the first beat of the measure (there are a lot more B's in that situation, though).
A student working through this book is likely to end up with the sound of these alterations in his ears and with a library of useful licks. All applicable to playing most standards. This gets done without Greek names and without a completely different scale name for every change of a note or two.
Is it everything you need? Well, it might be really good in 1958. I'm not sure how well it gets you through Wayne Shorter tunes.
I'm confident that it would be good preparation for whatever you have to do next. The theory is easy to learn. The hard part is getting the sounds in your ears and working on the ability to play what's in your mind's ear.
-
CST isn't a rocket science. If anybody has any difficulty getting it is because all the confusing material out there.
Loop a G7 vamp. Over the vamp:
1- Improvise based on Dmin7 tones. Play a D minor lick. D minor pentatonic lick. Or just play the arpeggio.
2- Improvise around DminMaj tones. Get that C# in there.
Do you hear the difference? Do you hear how it completely changes the vibe. It probably makes you want to play differently. Then you get CST. Everybody can hear this. My 4 year old niece can hear it (I actually tried it). You can call this harmonic organization or whatever mumbo jumbo you like. That's the idea.
-
Here CST view makes sense since in the second case we are appealing to a different parent scale as we are using Lydian dominant (melodic minor).
What I find objectionable is using CST terms when we are implying the same parent scale unless we are in a context that's truly modal.Last edited by Tal_175; 07-01-2018 at 07:31 AM.
-
Yea... 175... you get the 1st level of one possible application of using CST. But there is a little more. When you do as you said use modal interchange and create different note collections over a root. The actual CST part is what else harmonically is implied from your choice of MI ... the resulting harmonic organization for the rest of the tune or even just a targeted section.
So the actual choice of notes using MI, (or whatever you choose to call your organization for changing the noted over a root),
is the basic reference for using CST. CST in your application would be the resulting harmonic organization from your choice.
There are jazz common practice examples... not just one... you can make a few choices.... but the CST part is the choice(s) you make from your added or changes notes...
Maybe it isn't that simple...
-
... and maybe think of the modal labels as more of a means to imply different harmonic organization. If one was to use traditional functional analysis with common practice jazz harmonic movement... your would come to many wrong conclusions of perceptions of functional movement.
-
rpjazz, sure... Comping is my thing.... there aren't many guitarist who have my skills... pick a few tunes. Matt has been trying to get me to post etc... I would dig it.... you might even hear how one can use CST in a practical application.
Bako.... great post.... I've been trying to get those concepts across for years.... you get it... thanks
-
Christian.... CST is based on traditional harmony, right. It's not the original, or source. It's just another choice or possibility. there is nothing new... just possible different applications.
And yea... anything by it's self.... is vanilla. And we haven't even started to get into blue notes and the harmonic influences.
-
I'm not really familiar with harmonic implications being discussed outside of truly modal contexts. I am not doubting your experience with this. But what I have encountered is: Originally Posted by Reg
1- CST applied in regular minor/major functional progressions. Here you have a harmonic situation, like #Vdim7 used as secondary dominant. Then you're told the chord scale is Mixolydian (b9, #9,b13) from 3 etc. But this suggested as "during this chord" without other harmonic implications outside it, as a sort of flavor of sound.
2- Truly modal: Let say Phrygian mode. Then not only you have a chord scale but also cadence chords. Here you do have harmonic implications as you want to stay in this modal center.
It seems to me that you're suggesting a 3rd case, modal interchange chords and their modal implications? Is that right? That I admit I don't know much about.Last edited by Tal_175; 07-01-2018 at 02:16 PM.
-
.... maybe, I've been discussing them for 40 years, 7 or 8 years on this forum. Your complaints are somewhat.... naive. Sometimes one needs to put things together and see how they can work together.
But OK... who plays a #Vdim7 chord as a secondary... what century are we in. Really... sorry, the point of the suggested note collection is to imply one of four possible altered or Min II V's possible to get rid of a dim chord. (re-harm)
Generally the point of CST is to help use, (harmony), chords, chord progressions and chord patterns to imply contemporary jazz harmony common practice. The teachers who use labels such as flavors, might be dumbing down the language to somewhat get to a point where one can accumulate basic understanding and language of the subject.
I'll skip the rest... playing jazz always involves modal concepts. You don't have to use them, but that is a personal choice. I know many are in Love with BH.... but listen to his early playing, he made a conscious choice to play the way he does etc... It's just to muddy for some. I still love him, just don't really dig his harmony... who cares... how many pros still use it beyond students. Solo pianist...
Modal concepts are not old names for notes... generally now... simply using a different harmonic organization for movement, the modal part is referencing the organization from that concept.... Old modal concepts using characteristic notes and their organization... expanded. Some might even call BH use of Dim. as modal.
If your really interested... we can go on but I'm OK with not.
-
You aren't the type of player I have in mind when I think about 'CST guys.' I get the impression you already knew how to play jazz and were able to add CST into your bag to widen your horizons. I think that's the way people used to do it - learn jazz on the stand with older, experienced musicians and then develop from there, looking into new concepts. The 'CST generation' (Burton etc) all knew how to play bop etc. Originally Posted by Reg
I run into a lot of modern players, do mostly originals, modal non-functional stuff, don't know many tunes etc, play out of the Real Book app etc. They definitely don't know the functional harmony and go straight to CST - 'what scale do I play on the D7 in Someday My Prince Will Come?' - that kind of mentality.
This kind of musician always seems to struggle on things like Rhythm Changes and so on, and be somewhat lacking in jazz language. Their time might be pretty metronomic, but they don't swing. Truth is, they haven't played with any elders, got much jazz bandstand experience, mostly play with peers from college etc.... I was like that for a long time...
This isn't a straw man - this kind of player really exists, and probably forms the majority of young players I encounter. I think there's something that's failing to connect in their education, but maybe they just aren't interested in learning the old stuff.
Society is to blame! ;-)
-
OK, thanks. I'll check out these older posts. Originally Posted by Reg
-
Would someone be kind enough to provide an example or two of what Reg is calling "harmonic organization"?
I can't quite figure it out -- and google doesn't seem to help.
It would be great if the example referred to a specific tune in a specific key.
Thanks in advance.
-
I'll think about it and get back to when I've decided whether or not this statement is complete bollocks. ;-) Originally Posted by Reg
Depends what you mean by modal concepts, I guess.
I'm not sure if I follow you - it sounds like you mean Barry was more open early on and then became more conservative stylistically... I suspect you mean he basically persisted with the same thing from his early career to the present day?You don't have to use them, but that is a personal choice. I know many are in Love with BH.... but listen to his early playing, he made a conscious choice to play the way he does etc... It's just to muddy for some. I still love him, just don't really dig his harmony... who cares... how many pros still use it beyond students. Solo pianist...
As far as Barry's Harmony goes - well there's quite a few useful things I have taken from it. I do see it as a bit of a rabbit hole for me, and not applicable to all the music I play... (Which, is actually quite frequently modal/CST influenced.) The line building is where it's at for me...
I kind of find that idea that CST represents any sort of modern direction in harmony a little funny, given people have been into CST for ... as long as you've been talking about it? (Sorry!)
-
I'm not Reg, but as far as I use the term, harmonic organization is just that--how you choose to organize the harmony of a tune--o.e., functional, modal, micro, macro, a combination, etc.
A great tune to look at would be something like Dolphin Dance, which mixes functional, modal, and non-functional comcepts...
-
Ok, Dolphin Dance it is.
How does "harmonic organization" work as you comp, or solo, over it?
Can we run through a few bars of it and discuss some alternative choices?
Sorry, but I can't figure out what we're talking about here.
Here's how I might think about the first few bars.
Ebmaj7 to Dbmaj7/Eb. I hear this as dropping the tonic a whole step while maintaining a kind of suspended quality because the bass note doesn't change. I'd be thinking Eb and adjusting to the Db by ear. I might go a step down or I might not.
Next is another Eb, so I just continue in Eb.
Then a minor ii V im to Cm, so I'd probably hear the Bb becoming a B. That takes me from Eb to G7b13, or close.
Next is an Abmaj7#11, which is still the notes of an Eb major, to Cm (pick the alterations by ear) and then a ii V I in G major.
That leads to Abm7 Fm7 G7#5 Cm7 Am7 D7.
Upon reflection, I hear the Gmaj7 to Abm7 as a kind of half step up modulation and might play it accordingly. Then maybe think of the Fm7 as Ab6 and just turn minor to major. Then it drops down a half step to another ii V i in Cm.
On the bandstand, I'd be singing the melody to myself and playing around it.
Is this a "harmonic organization"? If not, what is?
-
Dolphin Dance is a bit like Green Dolphin Street in a way innit? Periods of non functional bullshit over pedals punctuating modulatory functional harmony.
Coincidence? I don't think so.
Look at those grinning bastards, what are they up to?
-
CST = Cetaceans Strategise Takeover
Reply With Quote
Tour of Gibson Custom Shop
Today, 06:04 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos