How to improvise over diminished chords?

[christianm77]

BTW - I rewatched this and realised my explanations in this vid are not always that clear.... Feel free to post any questions below.

[bediles]

Hey Christian… There’s some reiterating of what you said in your video plus a few other points. I wrote it so that if someone stumbles upon the subject for the first time, they will have some context. I’m not trying to explain things to you that you probably already know…


Ok, I’ll try to keep this coherent. Really, it’s all based on one simple principle: What sound do you want to make? However, the answer to that question may (or may not) relate to what the tune/music you’re playing dictates what the sounds should be. ie: style and context

Also it bears mentioning that what you do with these scales is important, plug and play is not really the name of the game and realistically you could play anything with a nice melodic contour and would sound good. Also, the mental conception is really up to you: scales, arpeggios with passing notes, neighbour tones, tension/release etc.

What to play on dim chords:


Diminished Scale: (C Whole/Half on a Cdim7 chord, extensions sound great so play the related half/whole too). Sounds great on Tonic Diminished Chords or Aux dim resolving to Imaj also works on Chromatic diminished but sounds better in this context when you resolve to notes of the V chord over the IImi7 (context: bIIIdim7/IImi7/V7). This scale does have non-diatonic content and is not related to a particular key area so it will sound more “out” or colourful to your ears than a more diatonic approach.


Harmonic minor (Mixolydianb9b13, Phrygian Dominant specifically): On Secondary Dominant Diminished (usually #I, or bII because it’s most commonly the VI7 chord) this choice sounds the most inside because the note collection changes with the accidentals added due to the presence of the secondary dominant (but dim scale is fair game too). It’s a diminished chord that’s actually just a dominant chord, play dominant stuff (preferably dom leading to minor, or major stuff min third up).


Mixolydian b9,b13 with a #9 added (or VII mode harmonic minor (Ultra Locrian Bop??) , or Aeolian Bop Scale, Or Barry Harris 6th Dim Scale… these are all the same)


This choice is based on looking at the dim chord of the moment and then looking at where the chord is leading to and combining those notes. Ex: Ebmaj7/Edim7/Fmin7 (Sec Dom Dim function, AKA:dim chord leads to a chord a half step up)
Edim7: E,G,Bb,Db
Fmin7:F,Ab,C,Eb
Scale: R,b9,b3,b11,b5,b13,dim7,maj7


I’ve transcribed Coleman Hawkins and Wes using this pitch collection, even playing the maj 3rd(b11) on the downbeat of a diminished chord.


You can do this for Chromatic Diminished too but you make the passing notes the V chord as that’s where the the dim chord is actually leading to. I Don’t know what to call this scale exactly?


Ex on Someday My Prince Will Come: Dmin7/Dddim7/Cmi7/F7
Dbdim7: Db,Fb,G, Bb (bb’s suck)
F7: F,A,C,Eb
Scale: R,9,b3,b11,b5,b13,dim7,maj7


Finally, Many chromatic dim chords (bIIIdim) found in standards have the b13 in the melody. These chords sound great as VII7 chords (in the parent key). Test this on Body and Soul, play a C triad (1st inv) under the melody instead of Edim7. In addition, the scale would be Mixo. b9, b13 (Oh wait now we’re playing chromatic descending and ascending dim chords with the same pitch collections, EASY.)


OK so what does this all mean? And does it matter when all of these choices are mostly only one note off?? Well now you know of a few approaches used by various top musicians that I know and myself. Now you have some options to consider.


To recap degrees from the root on the diminished chord:


H/W: R,9,b3,4,b5,b13,dim7,maj7
Ultra Locrian Bop (standard Bop Scale but played on the ‘other notes’): R,b9,b3,b11,b5,b13,dim7,maj7
Using Dominant as non chord tones: R,9,b3,b11,b5,b13,dim7,maj7


Lastly, the scales sound more ‘out’ or colourful when the notes in between the dim7th chord tones are out of the key centre. In most contexts, the H/W generally has more of those extensions out of the key.

[christianm77]

Wow that's a lot of complicated looking information, but it looks at a glance like we are saying the same sort of thing.

I think I'm focussing on the most diatonic solution, trying to make the most vanilla choices here. Vanilla is not always best, but it's a good place to start.

Which generally derived from the harmonic minor. I see no point in using complicated mode names in the sense that Bach or Chopin wouldn't have used them and this is really what we are talking about here... For the dim7 came from minor harmony, harmonic minor in particular. Bo7, for instance, belongs to C harmonic minor (and also Eb, F# and A, depending on context.)

The context being - simply select whatever is the most logical scale for your local key. In the case of Dm C#o7 it's obviously D harmonic minor.

For many tunes the W-H stuff sounds great on dim chords, but it never worked for Insensatez, because I think that tune is a melodic ballad, and it needs that melodic simplicity to it.

[christianm77]

PS people can also talk about the Harmonic Major as a parent scale of the dim7, and that's absolutely fine although I'm a little leery of its value as a concept. There's a fine line between H Major and Major/Minor melodic interchange.

However, some of the borrowings of melodic voices on diminished chords in jazz can strongly suggest, if not outright state, that scale. A good, and pre-Berklee, pre-modal, pre-bop example is the first chord of Django's Castle, in D, for instance, a Bbo7 with a melody F#.

This chord could also be understood as a misspelling of notes from the relative minor, B harmonic minor.

But you can analyse Django soloing on these chords and totally say his note choices all belong to the D harmonic major. Have a listen:

In general b6 in major is such a common device. I would hear it as a use of Gm and D chordal outline sounds, but given the argument in the video, that would seem to be a bit unfair.

Django REALLY REALLY likes this kind of sound. It's very Romantic (by which I mean 19th century music as well as the emotion.) But I don't think Brahms or any of those cats would have used this concept.

Basically, my beef with the harmonic major is that I cannot hear it intuitively as a whole melodic scale, I hear major and harmonic minor stuck together. It does not feel like a natural sound in the diatonic/major/minor world - instead more like a composite sound. That hasn't stopped me from writing music that uses it, in an attempt to hear it.

Maybe that's not the point - it is a harmonic scale after all, a source of harmony. Perhaps treating it as a stepwise scale is a waste of time. After all harmonic minor was considered a problem because of its aug 2.

Barry Harris, of course, has his own different take on all of this.

[bediles]

We're saying the same thing. I usually just play the next most diatonic sounding thing when there's a change that is "non-diatonic" whatever that chord may be (well... dominants are another story). I find it most interesting that by playing harmonic minor sounding dominant stuff you are really just playing major with a passing tone. This leads me see that there are many approaches and explanations for things that end up saying the same thing.

My main issue with diminished chords was that it took me a while to find the most 'in' sounding solution. The dominant harmonic minor scale with the #9 (which is something I would play anyway) for almost all non-tonic diminished chords is my solution... which is largely diatonic to the key centre thus sounds the most vanilla etc etc. But I had to dig for it. And it is a great starting point and matters less and less the longer you play in my experience

The current chord + next chord is an interesting concept as well (which some high profile sax players I know use)

[bediles]

I don't have a lot of experience with Harmonic Major, honestly. But any sounds out of the GAS or in the traditional jazz repertoire uses H/W or harm minor sounds or just the b6 triad (C on a Edim)..... OR MAYBE NOT

Some people play stuff that resolves to the chord that's after the dim chord and just ignore it maybe that the Harmonic Major approach but I really have no idea.

[christianm77]

We're saying the same thing. I usually just play the next most diatonic sounding thing when there's a change that is "non-diatonic" whatever that chord may be (well... dominants are another story). I find it most interesting that by playing harmonic minor sounding dominant stuff you are really just playing major with a passing tone. This leads me see that there are many approaches and explanations for things that end up saying the same thing.

My main issue with diminished chords was that it took me a while to find the most 'in' sounding solution. The dominant harmonic minor scale with the #9 (which is something I would play anyway) for almost all non-tonic diminished chords is my solution... which is largely diatonic to the key centre thus sounds the most vanilla etc etc. But I had to dig for it. And it is a great starting point and matters less and less the longer you play in my experience

Exactly. I don't think this is taught. Most of the players I know had to find it themselves... Not a bad thing per se.

Anyway, if you haven't, check out Barry's min6-dim in refererence to this, and maj-6 in relation to the Harmonic Major stuff I mentioned above.

The current chord + next chord is an interesting concept as well (which some high profile sax players I know use)

You mean adding say Dbo7 to Cm6 and making a scale and running lines? I can't imagine that creating a strong sense of cadence in the functional harmonic sense (where the stepwise differences between chords are important), but might be fun.

Barry Harris kind of does this, but there's a way he uses the scale to create harmonic movement.

[bediles]

You mean adding say Dbo7 to Cm6 and making a scale and running lines? I can't imagine that creating a strong sense of cadence in the functional harmonic sense (where the stepwise differences between chords are important), but might be fun.

Dbdim7 and F7 b/c chromatic dim going to and II V is a V of V before a II chord

I still have to check out the Django recording...

[bediles]

Anyway, if you haven't, check out Barry's min6-dim in refererence to this, and maj-6 in relation to the Harmonic Major stuff I mentioned above.

The neatest thing that I took out of the 'borrowing from the diminished' is that it's a concept that you can use to mine a bunch of melodic stuff right from the diatonic scale and by doing so you imply certain other sounds in your chords that (way easier on piano) could be construed as harmonic maj depending on the context. Also it frees you to have some nice movement in your voices and think like an arranger. Many of the concepts are standard practice arranging techniques (dim passing chords functioning as a V, diatonic planing etc) but

As for Django's Castle, it seems like he hears that sound on the chord (maj3rd on diminished). I tried to hear if maybe it was a mistake or if it was just a gm arpeggio or if the band was playing a different chord. The D is the tonic of the piece and he starts his line there which works better than ending on a b9... I don't know... I guess he just hears that note. ---- MY OLD RESPONSE

[bediles]

Edit - I'm an idiot, I ate some dinner and now can think a little clearer. Opon further listen it sounds like a I to IVmin melody. forget all that harmonic major stuff, I think the chords follow him (it's a Gdim later in second A though). He's clearly playing different changes. Interestingly, this works out to be sort of a harmonic major thing (but not really) when you consider it from the D tonal centre. Subdominant min function/sound (IVmin, bVII, IImin7b5 etc anytime a b6 degree makes an appearance in a major) some people call it modal interchange but I like subdominant minor b/c it actually describes what's happening: borrowing a subdominant chord from parallel minor.

Maybe too much info there at the end.... totally IVmin6 arp with embellishment and I'm sticking with it.

[Christiaan van Hemert]

Hello, somebody asked me about this and pointed me to this thread. The first chord of Manoir is Eb7#9. Playing Gm6 over this chord in the key of D is a common sub in gypsy jazz. Just a A7susb9 sound!

[christianm77]

That’s what I would have said, but the Bb dim chord still has an F# in it in the melody.

Anyway different interpretations. I’d probably go with then IVm I triads thing, but it does
follow the general b6 modality of those chords

[Christiaan van Hemert]

It's Eb7#9 not Bbdim! See the video!

[christianm77]

It's Eb7#9 not Bbdim! See the video!

I like the confidence with which you say that given the bass is Bb (I can’t hear any string bass on my reference recording) and the voicing doesn’t actually contain an Eb.

The voicing shape is certainly closely related to Eb7#9, but in general this chord doesn’t contain a Bb (unless it’s a dim scale chord.)

GJ players normally write A13b9 which is the tritone sub of your chord name. Problem is this chord symbol does not specify the bass note. Confused the crap out of me first time I saw it.

That’s not what I’d call it, but the pitches are the same:

Bb x G C# F# x

I hear this as a dim7 with a borrowed top note - ie a melody note that’s not in the dim chord. There are many examples for the jazz repertoire. Take Stella by Starlight (original changes) for instance, A on a E dim chord.

But this doesn’t really matter because that’s just chord nomenclature. Those pitches in combination with the target chord (D6/9) strongly imply D harmonic major. The Eb isn’t included in this scale. If you hear it that way of course. I don’t hear Django using Eb when he solos on it.

But finding a name for this chord has always been a pain in the bum.

[Christiaan van Hemert]

That voicing is typical sub for A7 in GJ. People use that all the time in every song in D. The bass player would just play an A clashing with that Bb. It's a bit strange but it works. You could think of it as Bbdim but that's making things way more complicated. Everybody is just playing A7 lines over that in all variations: C#dim arps, G-6 arps, C#half dim arps and even Eb7 arps!

And of course the voicing doesn't contain an Eb on the recording but I did that to make the Eb7 clear. It's a common tritone sub guitar trick used by Django all over the place! He just made it a built-in feature of Manoir!

[Christiaan van Hemert]

If I do it on a 251 in G the tritone sub is probably more apparent:

[christianm77]

That voicing is typical sub for A7 in GJ. People use that all the time in every song in D. The bass player would just play an A clashing with that Bb. It's a bit strange but it works. You could think of it as Bbdim but that's making things way more complicated. Everybody is just playing A7 lines over that in all variations: C#dim arps, G-6 arps, C#half dim arps and even Eb7 arps!

All of that works great and the name of the chord isn’t terribly important - Django probably didn’t use any of these names. If I see A13b9 in a GJ chart I now know after a few years of doing this type of gig what is the convention for that music.

Anyway, I’m not terribly interested here in what modern GJ players do, taking Django here as a primary source - for instance harmonic conventions and voicings are a little different for modern manouche jazz than they were in the 30s.

I don’t hear Django himself using an Eb here. He really liked that Gm D type sound. Danse Norwegiene also springs to mind.

As there is no string bass that I can hear on this track it’s hard to say about that bass note. I think it robs the progression of some of its beauty to play A in the bass here, personally. To me it sounds like the sort of thing a bass player might do if they just read a chart. This is the sort of thing that bugs me about jam sessions tbh.

And while GJ is pretty fast and loose with harmonic clashes, I do know some bass players that get driven crazy by GJ voicings lol. I guess they are in the wrong game. Django plays some very ‘interesting’ chords on songs.... You can get away with a lot more on acoustic guitar....

In any case I think you could play 6 x 5 6 5 x Bbo7 on the guitar here with the fiddle on F# and get the same basic effect anyway. No one would hear the E in the top voice of a short sustain Selmer guitar clearly against the fiddle.

The close relationship between dim chords and dominants kind of makes this discussion a little moot (we are both correct), but my problem with calling it Eb7#9 is based on not hearing an Eb in the recording. And about being specific about the quality of sounds. What gives this beautiful composition its unique atmosphere? For me, the Eb changes it.

More the blanket dismissal of my nomenclature lol. What I am calling this chord might not be common practice but it’s a valid way to hear it.

In fact you could say by using sounds derived from the A7 on this chord, you are simply making the type of substitution I’m talking about in my OP video anyway.

[christianm77]

And if no one ever plays Bbo7 arpeggios on this chord whatever you call it...

Well .... they are missing a trick!

[Christiaan van Hemert]

No, of course people play a Bbdim arp (I said C#dim arp in a post above)!

Maybe nice to know that Django on "Begin the Beguine" even plays that #9 on a I chord before resolving to a 6 chord. I start talking about it at 1:40:

You could pull of the same trick in Manoir by sliding that #9 chord one fret down before resolving it to a D6/9. One of my favorite tricks!

[christianm77]

No, of course people play a Bbdim arp (I said C#dim arp in a post above)!

Maybe nice to know that Django on "Begin the Beguine" even plays that #9 on a I chord before resolving to a 6 chord. I start talking about it at 1:40:

You could pull of the same trick in Manoir by sliding that #9 chord one fret down before resolving it to a D6/9. One of my favorite tricks!

Sure, there are a million possibilities and tricks and they sound great.

But at this point I'm more interested in getting specific, picky and detailed about sounds after around a decade of spaffing a gazillion notes on chords.

What emotional effect does b5 on A7 have? (Actually there was a separate thread about hearing the 7b5 sound.) This is the what I think of as 'true altered' or 'tritone dominant' - it's a separate tonality from V7b9 or bVIo7. That's what I'm really on about here... being specific about harmony. Django uses this sound, but he doens't (to my ears) use it on this tune.

Django was in control of these elements because he was a master of melodic improvisation and played what he heard and related what he played to the spirit and mood of the song. That's why I think he was a great composer as well as a guitarist.

TBH I think many GJ players are happy just to shred and play their cool licks and tricks. over whatever given chord progression. That's cool, but it's not my bag as a player. I've done enough of that stuff to realise that and it's not really what reaches me about Django's music.

I should have chosen a different example, really, Gypsy Jazz is kind of it's own thing. I'm trying to address Django more in the context of jazz and music generally, rather than Manouche jazz.

[christianm77]

He plays C-B-A at 1:42... So maybe he is hearing a move from a Gm6/Bbo7/A7b9 sort of thing to a separate D6/9 or D7 tonality rather than an overall D major b6 sort of thing. Or possibly anticipating the D7 chord moving to G major. Anyway it's a lovely moment.

He would no doubt find it hilarious that people would spend so much time trying to work out what he was thinking when he was probably thinking nothing at all. But it's good to listen... And we try to unpick genius...

[christianm77]

i think the Bb is really the defining note of that chord. otherwise it would just be your standard "stomping at savoy" movement. which it is not to my ears.

Yes, I thought that.

TBH if a bass player played A in the bass it would sound wrong to me, and I'd ask them to play Bb. But that's the way I hear it.

I'm not saying it's the 'right way' to hear it - but I am saying it's good to be specific and detailed about the sounds.

[Christiaan van Hemert]

Actually on that alternative recording at 0:50 Django is playing a E7#9 chord with open E string (recording is in Eb). Definitely a #9 chord!

[christianm77]

Here's a brief list of tunes with an accented diatonic note that doesn't belong to the the dim7:

Turnaround of Basin Street Blues - A or b6 on Dbo7
Stella - A on E or Dbo7, which is the 4 or b13/6 depending
I Can't Give You Anything But Love - F# (5) on Bbo7 - the Real Book says Bm7, but many people play a Bbo7 here.
Someday My Prince Will Come - A or b6 on Dbo7
Inensatez - A or b6 on Dbo7

Will add more as I think of them

[christianm77]

Actually on that alternative recording at 0:50 Django is playing a E7#9 chord with open E string (recording is in Eb). Definitely a #9 chord!

Yes he does. Good point!

I don't have perfect pitch so was going to make a crack about Django finding a clarinet who would play in D :-)

Please transpose my comments up a semitone.

Anyway, that doesn't surprise me, its an obvious thing to take advantage of in this key. I'm really talking more about the soloing here. I hear this more as taking advantage of a cheeky sub with an open string for a cool variation rather than that's what the sound always is. Why? Because of how he seems to hear the solo tonality.

That b5 sound, the E - you can totally use it for soloing of course, but it kind of changes the mood a little. This relates to that other thread discussion on hearing the b5 on altered dominants. For instance if we were to play the voicing with the E in the treble - perhaps 7 x 6 7 5 x into x 6 5 5 6 x. It's a very cool sound (Peter Bernstein uses it all the time) but it changes things up.

So, I suppose the whole harmonic major thing is a bit tenuous here. Django is definitely leaning heavily into the b6 (Cb!) in a major tonality. You can think of it that way if that's your thing. It isn't actually the way I think of it.

in practice, it's up to the player. If you hear it as an E7#9, that's what you hear it as.