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You know it’s really telling going over the tunes I learned as a beginner how I often learned voicings that clashed with the melody because I was thinking about what was correct for the chord scale relationship rather than what was right for the melody.
Obviously I concentrate much more on that now, but man if that hasn’t taken me needless long to realise.
The chords are just the clothes you hang off the melody.
The real book changes are modern business suits everyone wears, but you want to go back and look at the ‘30s suit that Cole Porter cut... you might not wear that suit now, but you can learn about the way it’s cut.
Ok the metaphor is breaking down lol
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05-24-2018 05:21 AM
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In terms of playing standards with new musicians I feel there’s often a much simpler template on which the RB changes fit but that is also more versatile and also help understand the basic structure of things that can look very complicated and hard to understand.
So for instance, understanding the relationship between sideslip ii-vs and non leading tone dim chords can really help with Darn that Dream.
I agree that comparative analysis is the best way to learn this - or the way I learned. Looking at lots of chord charts, listening to different versions. Modern tech makes it so easy to check out the evolution of a tune.
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Originally Posted by alez
Different versions abound in jazz. Perhaps there aren't any final and definitive versions. Anyway, if jam sessions are just a sort of all-join-in-without-discussion thing, they don't really matter.
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Originally Posted by alez
Your method acknowledges one of the utmost important things - hearing in advance whether something "will sound good or horrible".
Your references to the key's major scale degrees when discussing the chord tones, extensions, and alterations of progression chords whose roots are not the key note... why?
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If the OP is talking about soloing and not comping, then I'd offer this.
My experience with trying out a new sound is often that I'm playing the same interval or scale, but I don't sound as good as the recording that influenced me to try it.
I think the reason is always the same. My overall line wasn't strong enough.
Any note can sound good over any chord, if it is done within a strong line melodically, rhythmically and harmonically.
So, before abandoning the project, I'd suggest trying to embed this ill-fitting note in a stronger line.
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Ok here’s an example I thought of yesterday. Boom ching. I’m here all week.
Listen to the intro. The tonality of this is A7b5 in Dm. He often plays that standard A7#11 grip in Dm. Here it’s a b5 not a #11.
Peter is really expressing A altered here but the b5 in the chord is important to him.
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I'm just getting back and checking out forum...
Interesting thread...
To the op .... how you spell a note or chord, can be loose and anyway you choose, but generally always works better when there is organization.
There are many ways to organize how to spell... notes or chords etc... Thinking that there is only one way to play a tune, by that I mean, one set of changes, one way to play the melody etc.... is like say there is only one V7 chord. It works in the written tradition of memorize and perform. But if that's how you approach playing Jazz.... good luck.
Voice leading... is not harmony, it's just a choice of how to play chords or melodic lines etc...
Just because you can't hear something, or can hear somethings.... doesn't mean it's right or wrong.... it's just a personal thing.
What you should try and start doing is... have what you hear and perform have musical organization. And the more musical organizational understandings you have... or can hear, the better and easier performing jazz will become.
Personally... spelling comes from relationships with roots C7.... the root is "C ". It's not Db or Eb, it's C. I can create a different relationship with that C7... Substitute different chords, chord patterns, embellish, compound etc... but if the reference is still C7, the spelling should also. But if there is a different reference, adding chord(s) changing the root, so should the spelling.
b5.... is usually from a different reference, a different chord, a substitution .. C7 to F7, typical I7 IV7 blues etc... the b5 is usually from an approach chord... Gb7 or E7... there are many.... many different possibilities....
The point is ... there are many possibilities.... and you should be aware of what your implying. When you imply... Harmonic or Melodic organization.... the rest of the musicians you might be performing with also hear. And what your playing, is like saying, Hey I want to add this chord pattern from this musical organization. Jazz musicians... can hear and usually understand what your saying, and will go with you.
We're not a backing tract.... we can sight read written out parts, and will play what's notated. But that would be more from the written tradition.
Take the time to become aware of diatonic chords from common scales. Then become aware of functional Harmony. Functional Harmony is just labeling of common harmonic movement.
Different chords have the perception of motion or sustain... to a Reference. How we use this perception of movement and sustain from Jazz Common practice can be referred to as Jazz Functional Harmony.
Sounds like the OP is a beginner.... start with becoming aware of Diatonic chords and chord progressions from different scales. Then common jazz Modal Interchange practice of those Diatonic Chords and Chord Patterns. You'll see and hear at least 75% of basic V7b5 references. Then you'll have the basic references to move on... " Movin Along" cool Wes Tune.
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Originally Posted by Reg
When I first heard reg saying these things several years ago, I thought that it was the long way around or maybe just for pros /full-time musicians etc. Once you do the work though, it really is a shortcut.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Head's melody as tune's backbone
Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
I always try to work from the bare bones changes. They're generally less busy / involved (cluttered?), which helps me construct melodic lines more freely.
Originally Posted by ragman1
I think "there aren't any final and definitive versions" is particularly true in the case of older standards (vocal jazz such as Tin Pan Alley's, Great American Songbook's, etc.) where, generally speaking, a bunch of standard harmonic devices have been used to fit / suit a particular melody.
Originally Posted by pauln
Originally Posted by pauln
I like to look at a particular tone from the perspective of the chord and also the key. I thought others may like it too. Also, I thought I would make my post more concise. What do you think, quite the opposite perhaps?
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by Reg
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It's Peter Bernstein's solo version of Yesterdays. Basically his intro is based on the A7 altered scale tonality really clearly.
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Alex... sure
A couple of questions and some info. 1st.
Your not going to find or learn everything from google... what you usually get is bits and pieces of non connected random info.
If your going to try and understand music using google style of info.... you need an organizational approach to connect that info.
You need starting points, called a "reference(s)".... and then when you start using that info... your creating "relationships", the next step would be the "development" of those "relationships" with regard to the "reference(s)". Organization.
Questions...
Do you know and understand what Diatonic chords are.
Do you know and understand Diatonic relationships.... extended diatonic relationships.
Do you know and understand Borrowing and Borrowing relationships from traditional or western theory.
Do you know and understand Relative and Parallel relationships.....
You need to understand these concepts and possibilities of "extending" these concepts.
One of the big differences of jazz approach to understanding music is.... there is not just one written out version of any tune.
The melody and chords are both going on all the time.... it's just a personal choice of what and how you choose to hear and use them.
A melody implies chords, just as chords imply melodies. Most think and hear jazz as soloing, developing melodic lines etc... but when you actually begin to play jazz, you realize we also develop chords, harmonic relationships.... there are many, including myself that believe jazz is more about harmonic relationships than melodies. But that's my personal choice.... I know both are going on all the time.
So Common Jazz Modal interchange practice is from Jazz tunes and jazz practice of Playing those tunes. (not just the basic lead sheet or notated version of). The most common jazz modal interchange practice from diatonic chords..... is from Relative and Parallel major and minor relationships. The chords from using Relative and Parallel harmonic organization. The simplest being... The relative Minor of Major. ex. A-7 is relative minor of Cmaj.7.
Jazz extends this basic borrowing concept.... using Modal organization. Instead of the Reference always being Major..(Ionian)....and harmonic organization from that reference.... Major....(Major/ Minor Functional Harmony) That reference can change, using modal concepts.
Which... (very simple version)... Modal Organization...the organization of how notes react to each other and which notes control those relationships. Modal Concepts are which notes control the relationships..... Modal Interchange is the result of that practice being applied to Relative and Parallel relationships.
This is very simple beginning approach to understanding common jazz practice using diatonic chords and extended concepts of, it's not the only approach.
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Hey Christian... nice solo version. I really hear as much of the Eb7 and even just Bbmm reference. Which to me is just using modal application of Dominant function. A7 is obviously part of that function or sound.
Cool how he ended on the relative V7 of Dmin. creating the II V relationship D- G7, and keeping the MM modal reference also going on.
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Originally Posted by Reg
Anyway, you begin to see that it's very standard "written in" part of tunes anyway.
Hope all is well. Good to see you.
Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by Reg
For me Peter's solo work is some of the only solo jazz guitar playing I will listen to for pleasure in the same way that I would a pianist. He has that 'ugly beauty' that lifts it. Guitar can sound so 'nice lounge music' when doing this type of stuff.
He says it comes out of Monk, and I can hear that. I need to check out Monk properly now... :-)
Cool how he ended on the relative V7 of Dmin. creating the II V relationship D- G7, and keeping the MM modal reference also going on.
TBH I'm not sure how much Peter thinks in MM - he's all about the voice leading and chords, but he certainly plays those extensions very heavily and he also likes the diminished scale tonality a lot. He goes for these pungent tonalities and really draws attention to them.
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Yea... I don't listen to much to PB, but when I do or when he's on someone's date ... I hear the same use of MM as he did in intro... The VII or altered chord and the tri tone or IV7 #11 chord relationships. And the IV7 to V7 relationship with blue notes, and the basic I- to II - groove like he also did in the intro. Peter also seems to use the Dominant Pentatonic patterns for framing Blue Notes. I'm no expert on his playing and have never transcribed anything etc... all from casual hearing.... so maybe totally wrong.
The monk thing ?... is it a rhythmic reference, harmonic rhythmic ...weird grooves... or no groove, just repeat.
I agree with you... he does play pretty old school harmony, vanilla with embellishment, but I'm also old school.... if had more chops I would probable even dig his playing more than I already do. I always love his playing with Mike LeDonne and Larry Goldings
And yea was great example of standard Modal concept playing MM as source for V7altered chord.... which opens all the other MM doors and relationships.... and also of using The G13 #11 chord at end which is typical jazz application of using related V7 chord of any Minor chord...in Yesterdays... Dmin bring the I- chord and adding the related V7, G7#11 to create a II V.... opens all kinds of harmonic doors etc...
Yea Matt.... the chord pattern II- V7 can have as it's reference... The II-, the V7 or even the implied I chord
So you have D-7 to G7.... you can use D-7, G7 or the implied C as tonal reference for creating and developing relationships... soloing both melodically and chordally
Or even more fun...when you have just one of the chords, any Minor, Dominant or Major chord.... you can add any of the related chords from the chord pattern II V I using relative relationships organization.
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Originally Posted by Reg
5 x 5 6 7 x
He might just play
5 x 5 x 7 x
His soloing ideas he says come out of the voice leading - not 100% from the chords but 80-90%, with added notes. Probably ends up being pentatonics in practice but I haven't heard him talk about this concept.
He's very chords and voice leading centric, and doesn't seem to really think in scales.Last edited by christianm77; 06-01-2018 at 04:06 PM.
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Yea the scale or chord tone discussion... is for ?. Beginners, those who done understand theory, harmony, maybe those who like to keep it one dimensional, I never really get it.... music has it all going on all the time. If I choose to discuss some aspect or approach to playing, arranging, composing or even analysis....using chord tones, I'm implying a reference, if I use scales, I'm also implying a reference.
Anyway I guess in the early stages of understanding music or to make what one understands or stress some point... we say, scales or chord tones.... kind of like saying the melody or harmony is the holy grail.
If your using chord tones and soloing on a Bb7 chord, maybe in a Wes West Coast Blues style.
So melody used... 3 3 1 5 b7 b7 1... If I want to bring in a 9th to create relationships with the basic chord tones.... I have a Bb dominant pentatonic scale Bb C D F Ab Bb. or chord tones from a Bb9, or a Bb7 and a added extension... lots of options.... very easy access to working with E or Fb , the #11 or if you want to call it a b5.... personally I would be opening the mm door through the related II- chord, (Fmin to Bb7), and then through Modal Interchange.... the implied related II- chord, F- would become Fmm pitch collection.
(To the OP, this is a common Jazz Practice use of relative diatonic and modal interchange)
You could also say it's just an embellishment and development... or even an approach chord. The point is there are many options and if you have some kind of Musical organization(s).... it's not just a one type of concept which needs to be internalized and memorized etc...
You can consciously think, hear and make decisions.
Now if I chose to use the triplet pickup melodic figure... F G Bb I'm adding the 13th,(6th), to the chord tones, I could work with those melody notes, maybe add the #9 and the 11th... go Blue, which could result in, Bb Db Eb F G Bb. Another Dominant Pentatonic pattern.... with a different relationship.....
The point could be... I now have two note collections, or chord tones with added notes that can be used on the same chord or Melody pattern and use to solo with....
I have access to MM. Blue Notes, Chord Tones, Scales, Melody.... I have lots of options to improvise with and they're from musical organization which other musicians can hear and understand.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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I read that you play the trumpet. the instruments you're playing with guitar ,bass are imperfect.. and there's a good chance that you're eat tries to bring you to a perfect tone( and if that starts happening we have to deal with pitch drift). I'm going to give you another way to think about it. What's common in Western music and really all music. Is the human ear does not like a lot of semitones. So you may want to consider studying Pythagorean tuning. Just temperament.. and equal temperament.. sometimes where you need to be it's not on the five or on the flat five.. somewheres in between them. It's those pesky thirds.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by Reg
I agree with your point just above because I feel that's the way I've been dealing with this for years. And I often seek advice from proficient musicians such as yourself and also local people I listen to in gigs or jam sessions here who are willing to explain different things to me when I'm confused.
Originally Posted by Reg
1) Yes, those which all their constituent tones are contained in a particular scale, often the major scale, for which you get Imaj7, IIm7, IIIm7(b9), etc.
2) I'm not familiar with that term, do you mean that dorian is what's consonant with m7, lidian is what's consonant with maj7, etc.?
3) I don't know what that is, I'm afraid.
4) If you mean relationships between major and minor in a tonal context, yes.
Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by Joseph parsley
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I think you might get a lot out of looking into Jordan Klemon's take on Stephon Harris's teaching.
There's a lot of stuff about learning to hear the extensions using triads etc.
Jordan posts his stuff here, but the main action is on his melodic triads facebook page. Maybe give him a shout? It would be cool to have a non-guitarist check that stuff out, and I can imagine this approach working well on trumpet. There's some free materials.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Luckily, Jordan isn't quite so famous yet, and I learn a ton from him!
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
The feedback he gave, while invaluable, was delivered in the most gentle way imaginable.
There's a reason so many jazz guitarists in London - and around the world - take lessons with Peter. (Many of my friends & colleagues had already, so I felt that it was a 'normal thing to do.' And someone on this forum suggested I get in touch - which helped.)
But I'm glad I took a lesson now and not a few years back. It's good to be able to play a bit I think.
If you don't feel you are ready to take one on one lessons, do try and catch a masterclass. That'll give you a good idea of what he's about as a teacher.
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I would love to take one on one lessons with Jordan (I am in a way, pestering the poor man for info). I think I would Skype frustrating though, I really want to be able to play with the other person (that's as valuable as any verbal info). Maybe I'll try it.
A nice blond and Mickey Rooney on drums
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