Sweep Picking?

**jlg1** · 10-21-2009, 01:54 PM

Hi everyone,

Sorry I havent been on the forum for a long time - been busy with teaching etc...

I am just wondering I am working up my sweep picking abilities at the minute progress is going ok.

I want to bring this into some really smooth runs and have plenty of exercises including Jimmy Bruno's great The Art Of Picking Book and DVD but trying to improvise and bring this in is proving difficult.

Anyone any solo suggestions that have some smooth sweeps in them even if they are only on 3 strings or so - I am working here to arpeggios and scales with this though from a jazz point of view preferrably arpeggios would be nice?

Anyone any thoughts?

Thanks a lot

James

**Joe Dalton** · 10-24-2009, 04:43 PM

*shrug* it's really just creating runs with uneven numbers of picks per string and even to switch direction. So for example, root third fifth sixth seventh would create a good downward sweep.

**princeplanet** · 10-24-2009, 10:00 PM

I say don't get too caught up on it, just go for economy, particularly when you need speed. Alternate picking as a basis always provides for regularity and predictability when soloing, the right hand just falls into line and can easily express any rhythmic idea that comes to mind without tripping up the left hand. However, if you "hear" lines that are not easily negotiated with an alternate approach, then you break into economy picking which is just combining alternate with sweeping and slurring as to make ideas playable at tempo. Problem is, this hybrid method should never be unsure of itself, if you break out of an alternate picked run into hybrid, then the way you do it (out of many possible ways) should be consistent. Obviously that means thousands of repetitions for all these "aberrations" until they're executed almost subconsciously or automatically.

Everyone should develop their own unique right hand, we should all be different. Just look at all the great players, you can't "copy" their right hand, you're stuck with your own, make the most of it!

**EGad** · 10-24-2009, 10:09 PM

There is a Mimi Fox book that arpeggiates jazz standards. There would provide you with some some good source material. If you need a link, please let me know. Thanks.

**franco6719** · 10-25-2009, 05:16 AM

Here's an idea: take all the two-octave arpeggios that you know for say FM7 and start from the lowest note on the fingerboard up to the highest note. Then do this for all 12 starting notes. Next, take the minor7 arpeggios and start from the lowest note for Fm7 and play all the arps up to the highest note. Do this for F#, G, etc,,,,, Then do the whole process for min7b5, dominant7, etc..

**jlg1** · 10-25-2009, 08:00 AM

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies to this post.

Joe - Thanks for that I will try that out.

princeplanet - Thanks - I find my alternative picking is actually quite fast though going back and learning e.g, Jimmy Bruno's method which is the pick should fall onto the next highest string and vice versa on the way back is proving difficult as I have been alternate picking for years. He does mention that though - it does take a long time as its a learned habit.

I have also been working on (not my cup of tea) but some metal licks i.e, Yngwie Malmsteen G#o7 etc. arpeggios and some Frank Gambale stuff which is basically a major scale played vertically with the 3rd played on the low E as opposed to the A string.

The hybrid thing would be good but difficult to get going I would imagine changing from straight forward downs to alternate etc.. might get really confusing?.

I like the smooth flowing runs i.e, George Bensons first few in Affirmation - that sort of thing. Thats the kind of thing I'm after.

Egad - if you could send me a link to this MImi Fox book that woud be great. Thanks.

franco6719 - Thanks I will try that - it takes a lot of experiemting and (practice) to get these all down and up to speed - but of course thats all part of it.

Cheers for all the tips,

It looks like I've a load of work to do! LOL

Thanks

James

**princeplanet** · 10-25-2009, 08:20 AM

Yes, confusing, but unfortunately unavoidable, we all have to work through it and ain't it a bitch! I invent my own etudes based on cyclic progressions that go through all keys and all positions where I combine arps, modes, alt scales, chromatic embellishments and "licks". To play these as 8th notes at 300 bpm + it soon becomes obvious where you must leave the alternate picking and employ a more efficient alternative (eg arps). Basically I try to avoid a down stroke on one string followed by an up stroke on the lower (pitched) string - my weakness. Mostly this is achieved by sweeping 2 consecutive upstrokes, but sometimes not. I practice the right hand trouble spots ad nauseum until it becomes automatic. When similar problems arise, I take them on the same way and always find the solution becomes easier with time.

You must give the right hand more attention than the left. People forget that.
Oh, and there's no short cut, believe me, I searched long and hard.....

**EGad** · 10-25-2009, 10:00 AM

JLG1;
Here is a link to the Mimi Fox book on Amazon:
Amazon.com: Mel Bay Guitar Arpeggio Studies on Jazz Standards (9780786671991): Mimi Fox: Books
There is a description of the contents and you can even look at excerpted pages.

**jlg1** · 10-25-2009, 01:57 PM

Hi again both of you,

Thanks for the tips again princeplanet and thanks Egad for the link to teh book - judging from the reviews it seems very useful - must get it and get stuck in!

Much aprpeciated,

James

**P.J.** · 10-26-2009, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Everyone should develop their own unique right hand, we should all be different. Just look at all the great players, you can't "copy" their right hand, you're stuck with your own, make the most of it!

That is great advice. Whatever works for an individual is what you should do. Something that comes very naturally to one person might be a complete non-starter for another. Experiment w/ everything and use whatever makes physical and musical sense.

=-) PJ

**Champy** · 10-28-2009, 04:04 PM

I've been trying to sweep the first part of eugene's trick bag for years, it's pretty fun, yet i really suck at it.

seems like it's a bunch of 6 string arpeggios.

**timscarey** · 10-28-2009, 06:53 PM

stevie ray vaughn.

he would sweep into most of his licks

**jlg1** · 10-29-2009, 06:43 AM

Hi,

Champy - I'll take a look at that one - sounds like maybe theres a like going on?

timscarey - I never thought of SRV - have a few of his albums must have a listen to him as well.

Still working away at arpeggios and getting my technique down - determind to get it though!

Thanks for the replies!

James

**C.A.JO.** · 11-07-2009, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Alternate picking as a basis always provides for regularity and predictability when soloing, the right hand just falls into line and can easily express any rhythmic idea that comes to mind without tripping up the left hand. However, if you "hear" lines that are not easily negotiated with an alternate approach, then you break into economy picking which is just combining alternate with sweeping and slurring as to make ideas playable at tempo.

I don't agree 100% on this.

Alternate picking is predictable because of the consistent up/down motions.

But if you use economy picking/directional picking the downstrokes/sweeps and the upstrokes/sweeps also becomes very predictable. I use directional picking exclusively. So if play arpeggios it becomes a sweep, if I use scalar-like runs it's a combination of alternate and sweep-picking. But it is very consistent. too. I never think about it: When playing on the same string = alternate picking. When crossing strings I simply extend the last stroke to one more string. Meaning that I I'm ascending I lead to the next string with a downstroke; descending I simply lead with an upstroke. This is a question of habit. Directional picking can easily become as consistent and predictable as strict alternate picking.

IMO the difference is the TONE of either technique. I find alternate picking has a sort of machinegun-like tone, while I find directional picking has a more fluid tone. That's a question of preference.

**jlg1** · 11-07-2009, 09:24 AM

[quote=

When playing on the same string = alternate picking. When crossing strings I simply extend the last stroke to one more string. Meaning that I I'm ascending I lead to the next string with a downstroke; descending I simply lead with an upstroke. This is a question of habit. Directional picking can easily become as consistent and predictable as strict alternate picking.
[/quote]

Hi,

I have actually started to teach using that idea - Ive noticed other jazz players doing that and also some rock players - it seems to make sense as the pick is "ready to go" onto the next string on a downstroke and likewise on the way back up but I am finding combining a sweep with (my old way) everything alternate is proving difficult o master for some runs.

If I am playing a C Major scale for example startring Low E - 8th fret (vertical shape) I will play each new string with a down (i.e, low to high strings) which seems to flow pretty well.

I guess its just a question of working on sweeping more and trying to incorporate it in - its getting some good licks together that have "both" - thats the problem I'm finding. A 3 string sweep on G B E strings is easy enough but "longer" ones using lower strings sound very "scale or arpeggio like" i.e, the low notes of the arp/scale to the high ones - mixing them up always sounds better I think - this is where the practice is coming in I suppose.

James

**C.A.JO.** · 11-09-2009, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by jlg1

but I am finding combining a sweep with (my old way) everything alternate is proving difficult o master for some runs.

James,

the way incorporate this technique to your general playing is to practice it every day. My advice is to spend 15 min per day until it starts to feel comfortable. In a month or so then I recommend a complete switch. After this switch from strict alternate picking to directional picking you can expect a short period of time before your level catches up. BUT WHEN IT DOES YOU'LL HAVE A MUCH EAISER JOB FOR YOUR PICKING HAND. With directional picking and 3-note per string scale runs, you've eliminated 1/3 of all of the strokes since every string switch is a continuation from the last stroke. You'll be able to relax your right hand and through this you'll get cleaner and faster.

**jlg1** · 11-09-2009, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by C.A.JO.

James,

the way incorporate this technique to your general playing is to practice it every day. My advice is to spend 15 min per day until it starts to feel comfortable. In a month or so then I recommend a complete switch. After this switch from strict alternate picking

On reading my post back - I think it may have sounded like my alternate picking was also the problem - no its fine, I meant combining both is difficult - its the sweeping that needs the work.

I havrent been getting a chance to put the time in over this past week or so - I need to get back to it - the sweeps are still slow but I know it will take time to increase speed.

I agree re: cutting down the effort needed for scale runes etc.. I can see that happeneing - hopefully!

James

**C.A.JO.** · 11-09-2009, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by jlg1

On reading my post back - I think it may have sounded like my alternate picking was also the problem - no its fine, I meant combining both is difficult - its the sweeping that needs the work.

I havrent been getting a chance to put the time in over this past week or so - I need to get back to it - the sweeps are still slow but I know it will take time to increase speed.

I agree re: cutting down the effort needed for scale runes etc.. I can see that happeneing - hopefully!

James

Remember, you don't put your alternate picking to the side. When playing more notes on the same string you still use alternate picking. Sweep picking is only for switching strings....

**franco6719** · 11-10-2009, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by C.A.JO.

James,

the way incorporate this technique to your general playing is to practice it every day. My advice is to spend 15 min per day until it starts to feel comfortable. In a month or so then I recommend a complete switch. After this switch from strict alternate picking to directional picking you can expect a short period of time before your level catches up. BUT WHEN IT DOES YOU'LL HAVE A MUCH EAISER JOB FOR YOUR PICKING HAND. With directional picking and 3-note per string scale runs, you've eliminated 1/3 of all of the strokes since every string switch is a continuation from the last stroke. You'll be able to relax your right hand and through this you'll get cleaner and faster.

This is the Joe Pass approach right? It's another one of those things where I can definitely see the advantages, but the ingrained habits rebel and the unconcious says "Oh, come on. Why the torture?"

**C.A.JO.** · 11-10-2009, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by franco6719

This is the Joe Pass approach right? It's another one of those things where I can definitely see the advantages, but the ingrained habits rebel and the unconcious says "Oh, come on. Why the torture?"

I think of it as the Gambale-method, but without the strict part about outlining the number of notes on each string before playing anything.

Directional picking is this:

When playing on one string: use alternate picking
When changing strings: use sweep picking

This means that every time you ascend, you continue your last downstroke or lead with a downstroke.
Every time you descend you lead with last upstroke...

It's by far the most intuitive way of picking and the one with the least motions required. BUT THE TONE IS DIFFERENT THAN ALTERNATE PICKING. Alternate picking has a machine-gun precise sound to it, while directional picking is more fluid and watery. Which you prefer is a matter of preference. But motion-wise: directional picking is most efficient.

**merseybeat** · 11-16-2009, 02:26 AM

Directional picking is this:

When playing on one string: use alternate picking
When changing strings: use sweep picking

Makes sense, however my main problem is I only have a relatively small hand span so getting 3 notes per string lower on the neck is almost impossible for me (3 notes a whole tone apart). So I am often stuck with a two note per string which totally puts me out of 'economy' balance.

I find I can balance my runs by adding an 'in' chromatic, a hammer, or slur!

Gary Potter (Great Liverpool Jazz player) once told me that if it works for you and sounds good then go for it! After all Django had tremendous physical limitations and he did OK!

Another great American player I know told me "non of the greats strictly play 'virgin' arpeggios or scales, You should color them with you own ideas based on sound and physical capability, this is what identifies you as a player'

Free your mind Neo!

Regards

Eddie Hughes

**cosmic gumbo** · 11-16-2009, 03:27 AM

Well, when you go this way, you switch directions to go up before you go that way. When you go down, it's all about switching the direction to go back up before it's time to switch directions again. String skipping keeps things going smooth until you go the other way in the same direction, okay? As far as sweeping, gravity will always work against the sweep up. You can always change directions until you get to the next string. Mixing some alternating picking into the mix is definitely not going to help it sound mixolydian. It's a lot of hard work, but it's hardly worth it. Sometimes I just use my thumb and throw the picks away. Is that clear?

**C.A.JO.** · 11-16-2009, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Makes sense, however my main problem is I only have a relatively small hand span so getting 3 notes per string lower on the neck is almost impossible for me (3 notes a whole tone apart). So I am often stuck with a two note per string which totally puts me out of 'economy' balance.

Not to sound arrogant or insulting or anything... but are you "new" to guitar?

I have small hands to, but the strength and the ability to stretch your hands 6 frets comes with time for the most people. It did so for me with some patience and some practice.

So if you're beginner/intermediate I'd say don't dismiss the idea.

But if your hands are that small I'd say do what works for you!

**C.A.JO.** · 11-16-2009, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Well, when you go this way, you switch directions to go up before you go that way. When you go down, it's all about switching the direction to go back up before it's time to switch directions again. String skipping keeps things going smooth until you go the other way in the same direction, okay? As far as sweeping, gravity will always work against the sweep up. You can always change directions until you get to the next string. Mixing some alternating picking into the mix is definitely not going to help it sound mixolydian. It's a lot of hard work, but it's hardly worth it. Sometimes I just use my thumb and throw the picks away. Is that clear?

No, not very clear

It sounds to me, you go with the flow, and don't have a sort of "technique" to execute. Please elaborate what you mean. Don't you like the idea of sweeping?

**merseybeat** · 11-16-2009, 04:09 AM

Hi No offense taken! Actually I have been playing hard rock for over 30 years! What I am about now is doing the same with no distortion,sustain or other! So now I play clean (just guitar and amp) I sometimes hear those tiny Little flaws that overdrive hides so well! PS I am talking around 16 notes per bar at 140 BPM! (This is my current smooth long line enduring limit)

I have always been an alternating picker but am currently adding hybrid picking to my toolbox!

Now sorry about this but there is no way on gods earth I can span a first fret F (6th string) to a 5th fret A (6th string) it is just not possible for me!

Eddie Hughes