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Bears? That’s one way of getting you out of your comfort zone.
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03-20-2018 05:52 AM
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In fact the highest compliment you can pay the audience is willing to risk your own discomfort for better music, no?
To me a bunch of musicians going through the motions is the ultimate in self indulgence. That's the worst jazz. Do something to trip yourself up.
No, I don't want to listen to you learn how to play the tune that the rest of the band is playing.
I don't think you can realistically say that learning melody and changes before you present it to an audience is "going through the motions". You can have all the choruses you want to improvise, explore, create, whatever, but give us an auditory framework of what you're creating upon.
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It's a lesser known form of music pedagogy, but very effective.
Originally Posted by christianm77
("Don't come out of that room until you know your melodic minor scales, or I'm releasing the bears!")
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I think you guys are talking about two different things. Christian is talking about pushing yourself, not about learning tunes on the stand. (For some people that may be pushing themselves, but I'd hazard a guess that those people are not pros.) Originally Posted by whiskey02
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Actually, I think it could be about playing a new tune by ear on the stand.
I have done this on many occasions. It still happens to me a fair bit lol. Bear in mind I'm not talking about Wayne Shorter tunes...
I think it's part of the tradition.
People might prefer to view jazz as a form of party game where you realise chord charts, but actually... It's about the ears.
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Actually once one has learned a certain number of jazz tunes, the number of forms, standard progressions, etc. make it easier to learn a "new" tune than the audience might realize. An advanced jazz original by a major player would be different, but if one has mastered the main song forms and chord progressions, it isn't always too hard to pick something up as it's played. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Wow, bears at a blues jam? That sounds like big fun! "Crap in the woods in Bb, a one, a two ..." Originally Posted by Lobomov
Well ... some blues songs aren't in 12 bar forms. People should be able to call one of the better known ones or variations on 12-bar changes at a jam without others growling at them (or worse, if there be bears).
John
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Sure I'll discuss Pat Metheny style improv.
Pat is a genius level player. He's not only a truly gifted improviser but also an extremely gifted arranger, and composer. His music with the PMG really struck a chord with me as a musician. Maybe even similar to the way Pat describes how when he heard his first Miles Davis record it really resonated with him and made him decide that he was going to become a musician.
What can I say? I really enjoy and love listening to Pat's music and his improvisation has a very unique lyrical quality that is truly amazing. He has so many outstanding original compositions that to try and list them all here would turn this post into a whole book unto itself lol. He's one of the best guitar players I've ever heard period. So whatever anyone says I'll just say that in the top 25 RIAA best selling jazz albums of all time pat has 3 of them. Also that's a list dominated by horn players and piano players because historically there have been many more bop jazz bands led by horn or piano than guitar. Which kind of makes it even more of an accomplishment that he's on that list 3 times with 3 gold albums. So yes that really corroborates my feelings of the guy being a very special gifted musician/guitarist/composer/musical genius. He's one of my all time favorite musicians period.
Edit: Had to put a caveat to my own post here because after further review I don't think the list i got this information from on the Internet is truthful. That's the bad thing about the information tech age because any information you get whether digital or analog like the words you read are only as good as the integrity of the people who you get them from. I noticed that Benson's Breezin album nor any Diana Krall albums are on the list I quoted. I know Benson's Breezin went multi-platinum and he has many other platinum and Gold albums, though in the 80's some are more r&b than jazz. Diana Krall has nine gold, three platinum, and seven multi-platinum albums to date. Which should have her appearing on the list I quoted from the Internet.
Information get's delivered and then bastardized through someones own personal filter and then repeated to others or published somewhere as factual. The dude that made that list probable doesn't like George Beneson or Diana Krall so he left them off of the list. Who else did he leave off of that list? It's some kind of strange disorder that happens with people, They don't like something so they think you shouldn't like it either or they get information and twist it into the way they think it should be before disseminating the information. They interpret the information the way they want it to be and try to pass that off as factual. Sadly this even happens with people who hold up 2,000 year old books from podiums. That is one major factor why I don't listen to people who hold up 2,000 year old books from podiums anymore.
So that information of those artist's success didn't jibe with the authors presonal likes, preferences, and flat out prejudices so he left them off of his list. Probably also did not jibe with the authors thesis that you can't make money playing jazz. Benson, Krall, and yes Metheny (and many others not mentioned here) all disprove that lie.
Here's the link to that site with false information for your perusal:
Best-selling Jazz Albums of All Time (RIAA); or "There's No Money in Jazz" - Rate Your MusicLast edited by Bobalou; 04-11-2018 at 03:21 PM.
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i started another thread entitled Outside Playing Tutorial with lots of pat metheny inspired examples.
Check it out here:
Outside playing tutorial
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Love his song 'H&H'.
great tune.
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Looks interesting I'll check it out. Especially if you appreciate Metheny Originally Posted by jzucker
Yes and Pat has so many great tunes you could write a nice sized book just on those great Metheny tunes lol. Not to mention that he has been so prolific for such a long period of time while putting out such challenging and entertaining music. That's an amazing accomplishment in itself. Pat is truly a musical genius who exemplifies high level musical ability in his technical virtuosity, obvious knowledge of the musical language, as well as his prolific song writing capabilities. He's really "the complete player" too. Whether he's covering standards, playing his progressive modern sounding originals in a group, backing up a vocalist, writing, improvising dazzling solos, covering wide ranging musical styles on his instrument, or just sitting in a chair playing complex yet melodic improvised solo acoustic guitar pieces, he's demonstrated he can knock your socks off with great aplomb in all of them. Originally Posted by DS71
He's not the only jazz guitarist I like by any stretch but he's definitely one of my all time favorite musicians. I've always been drawn to music that was somewhat progressive and modern sounding more than say "roots music". Sometimes I write things and then realize it doesn't capture all I want to convey becasue I do enjoy and hugely appreciate more "standard" music too, there's a lot there to really appreciate and learn from too. Personally I've just always especially enjoyed music form guys who could play on a high level AND also were "sonic trailblazers" with a modern progressive sound and a good sense of melody. As much as I love hearing and appreciate a great improviser covering standards (and believe me I do love and appreciate the skill it takes to do that well) I still always have really been drawn to music with a modern, progressive, edge to it that also has a strong melodic sensibility. Pat's music has really exemplified that for me in the jazz world. The guy is nothing short of a virtuoso musical genius.
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I would appreciate a little more detailed analysis of Pat's playing on this thread.
But I'm too busy/lazy to do it myself ;-)
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i thought you didn't like his playing? Originally Posted by christianm77
The solo on Slings and Arrows is one of the best of all time IMO...
here's a band chart if anyone's interested:
Transcriptions - Slings and Arrows by Michael Brecker - submitted by HalfNelson
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I do like his playing, and I particularly love that particular solo and record. One of the first jazz albums I had. Originally Posted by jzucker
I think the particular discussion was at cross purposes - I was trying to be more specific and to do with differences in styles of time feel and era, and drill down into what differentiates Pat's phrasing and feel from the Blue Note players I was obsessed with at that point... I do see the BN players as classical masters of a certain rhythmic language, shaped by the music and bandstand environment they were in.
I would argue, the era of music shapes the musician as much as the playing of their idols... for instance Wes's swing feel is not the same as Charlie Christian, and Wes's relationship to CC is the same as PM's to Wes.
I also had a more philosophical point, and was TBH stirring it a little bit cos I had too much time on my hands (not so now, ha!)
Anyway, I never intended it to be a value judgement, which may not have been clear. And I have no intention of resurrecting that thread lol.
Pat's playing is completely his own voice - even if I hated it I'd have to respect it because it's so recognisable. And part of this is down to wise mentors steering him away from being merely an imitator of Wes...Last edited by christianm77; 04-21-2018 at 02:12 PM.
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I want detail, but not too much detail and in nice bite size chunks, easily digesteable to the baby-addled brain. Originally Posted by Eric Rowland
And I want people do this all for me for free! :-)
But seriously the fact that this guy is also a scholar of Britten makes that book pretty interesting to me... I like people with wide reference points.
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