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Long and interesting interview with Pat here. He says he stopped playing like Wes at age 15 because he realised he was too good at sounding like his style, like doing an impersonation. Also he says for the Bright Size Life era he was improvising a lot using triads and also superimposing one chord or harmony over another one (that was something he was taught early on by a local pianist).
Pat Metheny : Writings: Jazz Improvisation Magazine Interview
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03-17-2018 04:16 PM
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Here’s a relevant quote from the interview:
PM: My impulse to start writing music was driven by the fact that I was unable to find in standard tunes, blues forms, the modern tunes of the day, vehicles that were satisfactory for me to invest the kinds of things that I was curious about as an improviser, fully and successfully. I had to start writing tunes in order to play the way I wanted to play. It was a very practical, pragmatic decision. There’s this way I’ve got to play. I want to be able to play on triads. I love the sound of three notes that are the basic chords and there’s really nothing out there that really does that. The first tune that I wrote, that I felt like, “Okay, this is setting up the way I want to play. There’s a tune called “April Joy.” It didn’t appear until later on, but if you listen to that tune, it’s on the first group record. It’s that thing of having a couple of keys available all the time that comes from this John Elliot thing I was talking about, like where it’s sort of in B flat, but it’s sort of in F, but it’s kind of in D major. It’s kind of like there’s all these common tones all ringing between all these chords, and only a couple of notes shift. It’s set up a very simple diatonic way of thinking about chords, that allows me to improvise using very simple, not “pentatonic-like” kind of thing. Triadic type things. That was a zone that I was really curious about. After that came all the tunes that are on Bright Size Life, that I think really exemplify that kind of philosophy harmonically, that were all functional kinds of writing things, for me. Once I got my foot in the zone of like, you can write a tune and it’s sets up this whole sonic environment for improvisation to happen, as well as a harmonic environment. Then I went crazy. To this day, the group thing has gone from something that started out as just song-type work, to these structures that I don’t even know how you can describe them in terms of, “A-A, B-B, C-DD” type of things. They’re no longer about just songs. They’re really much more involved compositionally.
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Well, I don't know if this sheds any light on that, but I do remember reading an interview where he said that one of his biggest challenges is finding musicians who are capable of playing bop, but who are okay with not playing bop. He said that because people put so much time and effort into learning to play bop, that when they do learn it, naturally, they want to play it.
Originally Posted by christianm77
So it would appear that he's at least conscious of his music being "not-bop". But I don't know if the stance is a reaction per se, or just a "Yeah, that's good, but I've got this thing going on over here" kind of thing.
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Aha! Makes sense. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Well I mean really that sums up contemporary jazz.
TBF, my music isn't bop either. Well some of it is. But that's not what I write mostly. So I know what he means..
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Another very interesting quote:
PM: The key to what it is that will allow me to get to my best as an improviser, is familiarity. I really need to know the material inside out and backwards and forwards, in order to get to the places where I know I can offer the best stuff. That, in my case, has never been an easy thing. I’ve never been what you call, “a quick study.” I need to play over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, to get to where I’ve “got it.” I can function and learn something pretty quick and kind of deal with it, but in terms of really illuminating the ins and outs of a particular set of chords, or a particular playing situation, for me to be at my best, I got to be able to just know it so well, that I can forget it. That means making a loop on a sequencer or something, or just playing it for hours, and hours, and hours, until it just disappears and that I’m not thinking about it. Until it’s not an issue and it’s just sound, and that can take some time. I need to really prepare myself to do well.
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One thing I like a lot about Pat is that in all these interviews etc. he really expresses his thoughts very well and clearly, and he has obviously thought about these subjects a lot. Good speaker/communicator.
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He's a pretty good writer. At least the thing he wrote about Kenny G. was well written. Originally Posted by grahambop
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I think Pat is and has been one of the hardest workers at perfecting his craft. Stories of him practicing 12 hours a day as a kid are probably closer to fact than fiction. When Jim Hall was once asked about Pat's work ethic, he replied "ferocious". Originally Posted by grahambop
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When I saw him back in the Summer, it was a gig that had been postponed from February because Pat had gotten a stomach virus or something. At the postponed gig, he apologized for that, and said it was the first time he'd missed a gig in 40-something years. Considering how much he's on the road, that's pretty impressive. Originally Posted by jaco
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Anyone who's listened to lots of early Gary Burton can see the stamp it left on Metheny at almost every musical level. I've heard that influence in Metheny's art since the beginning. His personal voice, his writing, his approach to group dynamics. etc. How could playing with monsters like Burton, Goodrick, Moses, and Swallow, while Metheny was still a teen, not shape you?
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PM really likes playing ATTYA......
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Originally Posted by grahambop
That's very reassuring !
I'm glad I read that ..... Thanks
I have to go over the changes
over and over and over
For hours and hours and hours too !
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After reading the interview and listening to that really interesting audio lesson clip of Pat and a student, I was inspired to go over a tune I thought I knew well and just keep at it for a couple of hours (I chose ATTYA of course!). Amazing how much more stuff, ideas etc. I was able to extract from those changes by doing that. Also I discovered loads of weak points. Like I would start an idea but couldn’t resolve it properly, or my time went off, or I tried comping with loads of movement and couldn’t keep it going. You could practise one tune for years like this, it’s a great method. Originally Posted by pingu
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Found another interview with PM where he says he learned all the tunes the ‘old school’ way when he started out playing in an organ trio in Kansas City. He said the method went like this:
Organist: Do you know ‘The Song Is You’?
PM: No.
Organist: ok, 1 2 3 4! (starts playing).
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@grahambop
Didn’t a few people on another thread say this was an example of unpleasant behaviour, and made playing an unenjoyable experience?
Perspectives....Last edited by christianm77; 03-19-2018 at 04:25 PM.
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haha quite possibly. But that's what made those guys so good I think. I mean if you read all the biographies, it's what all the big name guys were used to back in the day, they just had to jump in and see what happens. In the interview PM says he would kind of lay out and watch the organist's left hand until he got the basic key centres etc. then gradually pick it up from there. Then just when he thought he'd got that tune down, the next night the trio would play the same tune in a different key, or never play it again! So he learned to hear and adapt really fast.
Actually I think I read the same thing in Dick Pearce's biography. Ronnie Scott hired him knowing he didn't know many standards, so Dick just learned them as they went along, on the bandstand.
I have occasionally tried practising this a bit by playing along to a record of a tune I don't know at all, trying to comp by ear and then play a solo. Sometimes it's not as bad as you might think!
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I look at this kind of thing from the perspective of an audience member, perhaps one who brought a friend along to introduce them to jazz, and what they end up listening to is at least 50% of the harmonic and melodic foundation (and let's face it, few anywhere as good as Pat) fumble to step into a song they've maybe never heard and certainly never played. It's very disrespectful to the audience and I think it has a good deal to do with why so many people don't like jazz; they don't get to hear a practiced, cohesive unit working together. When you think about it, it really is arrogant to think that an audience wants to sit and listen to you play a song you don't even know, that that is good enough. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Hmm, maybe this is the way the wierd superimposition of chord over the chord was born! Originally Posted by grahambop
"Oh, I thought it it was Gb7#11b13!"
Sarcasm alert!
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Agree with this to an extent. I've heard other musicians talk about this as a sort of spiritual or artistic means of growth...which sounds great, but maybe something that should be reserved for private practice sessions? Originally Posted by whiskey02
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Guess due out of 3 persons audience on a Jazz gig all 3 are malicious wanabe musicians, they would quite enjoy fellow human's failure.
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I see this as being rather closely associated with cutting sessions. And while I can understand romanticizing the idea of a baptism by fire, I'm very glad that kind of thing is out of fashion. I very nearly gave up going to jam sessions after my first one, because a tenor player - a local ex-pro - talked trash about my playing. And this was a session that was explicitly advertised as "all levels welcome." Fortunately, some of the other players were more encouraging, and subsequent sessions were better. If that were a more common experience, I might have given up jazz all together. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
More importantly, I don't really like the competitive attitude behind it. I think of playing with other musicians as being a cooperative thing. Too much macho d*** waving turns me off.
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Except.... Miles Davis. This is exactly what he would do to his bands. Originally Posted by whiskey02
Sometimes people play better when they are searching.... They avoid licks, they use their ears more, they play less.
A big problem I have noticed in my own process is the inability to separate process and subjective feeling and the resulting effect. For instance, the good gig/bad gig thing is a classic. Record that gig and listen back to it 6 months later - can you remember whether that gig was good or bad?
Can you separate your discomfort at being out of your comfort zone to the effect of the actual music?
In fact the highest compliment you can pay the audience is willing to risk your own discomfort for better music, no?
To me a bunch of musicians going through the motions is the ultimate in self indulgence. That's the worst jazz. Do something to trip yourself up.
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The guys in Miles bands were lightyears ahead of the weekend warrior jazz guy getting up to jam on a bandstand for the first time...
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People who are on stage for the first time are obviously not in their comfort zone.
But you don’t need to be chick corea to be stuck in a rut without realising it.
I think anyone at a basic level of competence (ie can play through changes) can get a lot of out of being more flexible.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Lol .. that reminds me. We har a popular bar with a blues jam every thursday that I like to visit once in a while to have a few bears and a bit of fun. Usually a nice atmosphere, but here is one host, that insists on calling tunes that aren't in 12 bars ... cos hey man .. real blues isn't in 12!
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