what's the difference between swinging and playing behind the beat?

**Jazzyteach65** · 09-13-2009, 05:05 PM

I know that swing feel, you can exaggurate notes by giving them a dotted eight-16th combo, but isn't playing behind the beat just an extreme way of playing a swing feel?

**theo** · 09-13-2009, 05:55 PM

not sure about that. check this video:

he´s just way behind the beat, no dotted 16ths or triplets and it swings like hell.
also make sure to watch him play there will never be another you. same thing there.
best,
theo

**Jake Hanlon** · 09-13-2009, 07:32 PM

IMO

Swing has nothing to do with Short notes vs. long notes. It has everything to do with placement of notes and articulation of notes.

Examples?

Dexter Gordon and the school of his Labour

8th notes, even as hell
Placement way way back of the beat = Amazing swing

Pat Martino

8th notes, even as hell
Placement dead center of beat, if not on top of beat = Swings like a bucket from a tree

Different types of feel.

You take a guy like Miles

He placed his notes perfectly but his articulation and tone made it swing.

**gravitas** · 09-13-2009, 08:28 PM

Agreed. I personally think articulation is what makes it pop for the audience. Obviously, you have to feel swing first, but you can be feeling really swinging without sounding like you have any idea what it is.

Probably accents are the lynchpin.

**wizard3739** · 09-13-2009, 11:47 PM

Yes, articulation is my thought too. Also, (IMHO) making a slow tune swing "separates the men from the boys"! Examples: "Georgia", "At Last", "Body & Soul", etc.....

wiz

**John Curran** · 09-14-2009, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by wizard3739

Examples: "Georgia", "At Last", ...

Really? I don't consider "Georgia" or "At Last" as 'swing', at least not in their original contexts. 12/8 is not swing.

Just my $.02

john

**wizard3739** · 09-14-2009, 03:55 PM

John, I truly respect your opinion but I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. IMHO, swing has little to do with tempo or meter. It is more dependent on articulation, adjusting your interpretaion of the music by anticipating or delaying the beat, dynamic variation and other techniques to give the music a swing feeling. IMHO, any song can be made to swing! I' ve listened to some good jazzy waltzes (Bluesette, Up Jumped Spring & many others) that really were heavy duty swing examples totally dependent on the performing musicians. It is true that there is a recognized "swing era" (Coleman Hawkins, etc...) in our jazz history but the ability to "swing" a tune (IMHO) does not depend on the tunes written and played during that era.

wiz

**John Curran** · 09-15-2009, 12:26 AM

As usual, I've not expressed myself well. I did not mean to imply that swing is meter dependent, you can make 5/4 swing.

My point was regarding a particular 12/8 feel that these songs were popularly recorded in. Both the Ray Charles version of "Georgia On My Mind", and the Etta James version of "At Last", were recorded in a 12/8 feel. It is a triplet sub-division of 4/4 time with each quarter note sub-divided into 8th note triplets, but it does not swing. Rather, it's an even 8th note feel that is rooted in rock. It's the same basic feel that bands over-abused in the 50's. The distinction is subtle, but important I think. Like the difference between swing and a rock shuffle.

That said, I've been prejudiced by my generation.

"Georgia On My Mind" was written in 1930 by Hoagy Carmichael, and "At Last" was written in 1941 and originally recorded by Glenn Miller, both no doubt originally with a swing feel. On that basis I concede your point.

I take back everything I ever said about ya.

john

Jazzarian · 09-25-2009, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by John Curran

As usual, I've not expressed myself well. I did not mean to imply that swing is meter dependent, you can make 5/4 swing.

john

Brubeck, Desmond and Benson would agree.

**Luan** · 09-25-2009, 03:17 PM

The metheny lesson available somewhere clearly explains what is swing.

**chachi** · 09-25-2009, 10:11 PM

swinging the samba played by horace silver.
Even the samba part "swings"

To me swing is more of a feeling than anything else. Little variations in the timing that i just am unable explain. It creates a certain tension, maybe by keeping the listener busy (unconciosly) recognizing these variations. My main intrument is drums and I know that just playing downbeats on a ride can swing like madness.
And I agree making slow tunes swing is waaaaay more difficult.

Another thought is that i never heard a programmed beat realy swing.
Please proove me wrong if you did, since I find that is a good argument against a tecnical approach.

I think the swing will come to you as you feel it. It cannot be taught in theory.

**rintincop** · 07-27-2016, 03:05 PM

I love how Garner switches from behind the beat to being on top of the beat with his right hand phrases, while his left hand "chunks " out his steady Freddy Green like pulse. He had a great ambidextrous timing that was very dramatic. It sounds refreshing when he suddenly switches gears from laid back swing eighths to even eighths on top of the beat. Also notice the frequent use of subtle accellerando and ritardando within phrases. I mourn the fact that Garner's style of phrasing is almost forgotten in modern times and instead we are focused on more machine like ascetics. The soul of the machine (technology dominated, computer age, cool not hot)

**rintincop** · 07-27-2016, 03:34 PM

The Russian Dragon, mostly on top of it here, hot stuff:

**lawson-stone** · 07-27-2016, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by theo

not sure about that. check this video:

he´s just way behind the beat, no dotted 16ths or triplets and it swings like hell.
also make sure to watch him play there will never be another you. same thing there.
best,
theo

Every time I hear Jimmy Raney speak on one of these videos, I'm amazed at how lucid, how direct, how honest, and just how right he is.