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Originally Posted by christianm77
over CMaj it gives you C Lydian also Bmin PT = D maj PT
just like we all learn the normal Amin pent shape, simple now interchange the sounds/chords
so D Maj pentatonic D E F# A B is 9 3 #11 13 M7 of C lyd
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08-19-2017 07:48 PM
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Dude this really has nothing to do with what I mean. Pentatonics are great but I'm talking about bop language. It all works in so much as you can play it and it sounds good.
I'm not sure if I've explained this very well....
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Originally Posted by christianm77
and has most certainly got to do with CM7#11 & D13 I was pointing out that DMaj pentatonic , is C lyd because it sounbded like you did not know. also its not the normal pentatonic application, but superimposed for wnt of a word whether D or Bmin Pentatonics are used in Bop. clue is in the name Five,
The topic started with Min7b5 and a number of people implied that it was too much calling that Min7b5 another name, well if they cant hear, so be it,
re CM7b5 & D13 both can = F#m7b5 and a few more chords. Jarret B Harris Herbie McCoy Sco Wes etc etc all used pentatonic but possibly in a way most dont get.
Pentatonic can be altered it can have chromatics, it does not have to be a strict scale just like anything else
WES used Emin PT arpeggio over CMaj giving E G A B D giving 3 5 13 7 9 it always sounds great. Not too be missed sound. But yes not Min7b5. merely pointing out, it is all over the place and pentatonic
is not what one may generally think it is, there are Lydian , Melodic min. Altered Diminished PT 1 b3 b5 bb7 7( although never stated like that) Half Dim PT, Blues scale is Hexatonic, but some associate with a pentatonic, even PT over Minb7
if you can hear you play it,
ps some folk weird think pentatonic is somehow baby rock player stuff YESit can be, but a lot of players
McCoy Coltrane use 4 note cells not 5 like PT J Henderson Walter Bishop plenty can be called motifs if repeated so there you go.
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Originally Posted by Durban
I can even do some of it in my practice room. In my practice room.
Understanding theory and being able to do stuff in my practice is not the same thing as getting something in you playing on the bandstand. For me that takes a long time. So I have to make a real steady commitment of years to make it happen.
most other gigging players seem to have similar experiences.
And the fact that not everyone does everything is part of what gives us a voice. Negative choices are as pivotal as positive choices IMO.
So that info might express what you do as a musician, to me it's basically useless because I am not you and haven't put the hours in to it (beyond just the theory, that I already get.)
In the same way Ben Monder's handout is three pages long (IIRC.) how much work does that represent?
One thing I appreciate about the pentatonic thing is that it is about taking simple material and applying it in every way you can think of. This is a great thing to do and not something limited to just pentatonics.
Anyway - You are really talking about the 60s language and later - McCoy etc I'm talking about more classical bop stuff, Barry Harris, arpeggio subs in the dominant scale etc which is my daily jazz diet. The lydian doesn't feature in the general run of things for that stuff. So the D9/Cmaj7 link isn't really closed.
Btw in BH stuff you do run 1-2-3-5 on fast chord changes. That's just root position major pent tetrachords of course. I'm shit at it.Last edited by christianm77; 08-20-2017 at 08:29 PM.
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Also Em on C is a great sound. I actually do almost go to the pentatonic on that. But it's more like triads for me....
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Actually, Pentatonic usage in the way that Durban describes is often just adding one note to a common 4 note group (typical arps etc). I'm quite into it myself, and don't think it necessarily sounds post 60's. Depends on usage and ways of embellishing.... Some kinds of simple pentatonics feature heavily in Swing, right? Prez ? ....
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Without being all arsesy (fine in youre in politics hahah) i meant to add
Pentatonic think of as just little four or five note cells
Pentatonic like Maj & Dom & MMin you dont have to play the whole scale/Arp
Just as one plays little 3 note chords or even Sco 2 note cluster,
and just to point out a little 5 Note Pentatonic can be Lydian or Altered Dom scale
Eg Cm C Bb G F Eb C (R) is a A7 Altered
I DID mention this sometime ago so its not Pentatonic per se
this is fairly advanced purely in terms of Naming
Plying and hearing is easy.
Christian i think may have said Boppers dont play wrong they did all the time,
and Yip they added chromatics sometimes
Our Darling Wes played Pentatonics a lot and he was the best.
This is not too be confused with Modal & Pentatonics & Fourths
McCoy was Boss there,
Prince thanks for bringing that up, highly usable & very playable
Regards D
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some other ways to treat it...
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I know I'm late to this discussion, but any and all chords need to be first judged by how that chord works. There are many ambiguities in harmony and the m7b5 / m6 / incomplete dom9 is one of the best.
In theory class, often time the half dim7 (as they like to say in the classical realm) is described as leaning into a I (like B half dim7 to CM) - yes, but not really because of the B leading tone. It's more because of it being an incomplete G9. The tritone resolves to the M3 in the I and any other active tones resolve according to voice leading. The REAL issue is the m7b5 chord that functions as an altered min (like Am7b5 to D7b5 or D7.... like in Rhapsody In Blue). Functionally, that's really a different chord and perhaps you'll want to improvise against it differently. I also think this is how more altered minors in bebop are handled.
As far as the m6 is concerned - we may be splitting hairs, but such a chord should really only be thought of as such if it's staying in the minor root area... like Gm7 - Gm6 - Gm7 - Gm6 (like in a bossa), but if it's going to say FM7... it should be thought of as C9 because that's how it's functioning.
My thoughts.
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Originally Posted by CamillusUSA
Bm7b5 E7b9 Am7
We basically think
G7 G#o7 Am7
So we can run a G7 scale and raise the G to a G# to get that E7 sound. It actually works incredibly well for bop lines, though most poeple seem 1) confused or 2) uninterested by it as a concept. Ah well, works for me.
To me, it's really best to understand the II and IV functions to be interchangeable. That has a lot of 'low hanging fruit' attached to it. IIm7 = IV6 and IIm7b5 = IVm6 are great things to understand.
Fourthwise motion is a development of 7-6 suspensions down the scale. This is baroque harmony, basically.
Cm7 Cm6 Bbmaj7 Bbmaj6 Am7b5 Ao7 Gm
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