Diminished Capacity

[TommyCorsica2]

Filling in a gap by finally getting diminished scale under my fingers. I know the theory and I have no trouble hearing diminished chords in my mind or in live music. But employing the scale over dominant chords (half-whole) leaves my ear a bit unsatisfied at the moment.

Wondering if I should focus using it a vehicle for moving patterns around, since it's symmetrical.
Or is it better as a tension builder going into the I chord (or V of V chord).

What's your approach to employing the half-whole?

[jordanklemons]

I don't have an approach as I don't use it... but it's a great scale to gain a level of comfort with and both of the ideas you mentioned are viable ways to employ it. If you're using it over a dominant chord.

[docbop]

I use it a lot but start with the dim arpeggio starting on b9, 3, 5, b7 of dominant. The the BH sound start on 2, 4, b6, 7 of major scale. Then started adding notes from the scale which all are handily a half-step below the dim arp notes. I found starting with the arp help get the ear used to the sound, then worked adding scale notes for more interesting lines.

[princeplanet]

Try creating patterns or sequences. Remember to try playing diminished ideas over both the ii and V chord, in major as well as minor keys.

[TommyCorsica2]

Thank you all. Very helpful.
Meanwhile, this thread isn't generating enough traffic. So... Who's better Miles or Dizzy? Flat wound or round wound? Altered Scale or Super Locrian? Falklands or Malvinas? (too soon!)

[mr. beaumont]

I've never loved the diminished scale for sounds on dominants...now, diminished arpeggios...

[pingu]

I've never loved the diminished scale for sounds on dominants...now, diminished arpeggios...

I'm the same , I can't dig dim scales

[Doublea A]

I have some exercises based on a book by Jody Fisher. PM me if you are interested in them.


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[christianm77]

Interesting how many people can't get behind dim scales.

My uses of the scale are fairly basic - embellishment of a dim7 chord. Tritone triad pairs. That's about it.

Oh you can do some nice chord things with dim7(maj7)-dim7 in minor 3rds up and down.

[princeplanet]

You can used dim scale material anywhere you'd think of using a dom7b9 chord. Sure, it's nat 13 instead of the b13 might seem wrong in some instances (see my threads about this ), but if used in a fast pattern-like passage it will usually sound cool if you land it strongly on the next chord. Piano and Horn players seem to use it more than we do...

[vintagelove]

Filling in a gap by finally getting diminished scale under my fingers. I know the theory and I have no trouble hearing diminished chords in my mind or in live music. But employing the scale over dominant chords (half-whole) leaves my ear a bit unsatisfied at the moment.

Wondering if I should focus using it a vehicle for moving patterns around, since it's symmetrical.
Or is it better as a tension builder going into the I chord (or V of V chord).

What's your approach to employing the half-whole?

Check this out. Fwiw, I find the diminished critical to my playing. Also, there is way more to it than a diminished scale, but you really have to study the old timers to pick it up. For instance, all of these are the same, if you don't get it, start studying. Enjoy

G7=Bb7,Db7,E7, G#dim, Bdim, Ddim, Fdim.


Diminished Jazz Vocabulary made easy! - YouTube

[christianm77]

You could say a lot of things are related to the dim scale if you want to look at it through that prism. Take this for instance (something I was teaching today):

m6 relationships

Dm6 --> Dm, G7, Db7alt, Bm7b5

A lot things end up relating to m3rd movements. Here's one:

Bm7b5 E7alt Am
Dm6 Fm6 Am

Dm7 G7 C

Lets go
Dm6 Fm6 Abm6 C

Also Bm6 --> C sounds good:

Now, that's D h-w diminished scale pattern right? (Not quite the dim you'd expect, interestingly)

I do play this stuff all the time, just don't see it as diminished scale.

These sorts of movements very old and very common in standards as well as lines. Look out for them!

[christianm77]

Also take the mMa7 fragment - C#, D, E, F - as in the cliches: E, F, C#, E, D or E, C#, D, E, F, C#

We have this fragment available (transposed in minor thirds) on Dm, Fm, Abm and Bm

Yeah, I mean as I play 'generic minor shit' on those m6 chords anyway (including the nat 7), I think less about a scale and more about diminished symmetry anyway...

[wolflen]

listen to some early scofield..he plays the hell out of symmetric patterns..try and find his lesson online..symmetrical diminished 1 - print it out..some very cool riffs over C7#9..using the Db dim scale

there are many chords and some cool scales to be found in the diminished scale..

out of C diminished scale-C D Eb F Gb Ab A B

D - F - Ab - B dom chords--
7#9
7b9 no rt
7b5
13b5--b5 in bass
mi7b5 - mi6 - dom 9th no rt 7b9#5

and tritone scales-Hexatonic-6tones-use instead of dim scale..does not have dim sound

D7b5 & Ab7b5

D Eb F# Ab A C -- note scale tones 1 b2 3 of D and 1 b2 3 of Ab lot of variations in this one

F7b5 & B7b5

F Gb A B D Eb same as above

this kind of study with ALL THREE dim scales C Db D will give you tremendous freedom in improve..as you can incorporate parts of scales/arps from different keys where you may find any of the above chords

choose one chord and play the arps/scales and tri tones of all the chords over it..then create small progressions-vamps-and do the same..you will begin to hear many riffs that fusion players use and mainstream horns and some keyboards

[docbop]

listen to some early scofield..he plays the hell out of symmetric patterns..try and find his lesson online..symmetrical diminished 1 - print it out..some very cool riffs over C7#9..using the Db dim scale

I used to have an old issue of Guitar World or one of the early guitar mag's with an article on Scofield's modern sounding comping. Sco said that any notes of a scale be combined to create chords and he gave example from one of his tunes where he took a diminished scale finger pattern and combined notes to create his comping. It was some really cool sounding voicings.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've struggled with dim applications over the years. Still not where I'd like to be, but I'll share some of my thinking fwiw.

Of course, it depends on the harmonic situation. So, for example, if the chords are Fmaj7 F#dim, I hear the main movement as raising the root of the Fmaj7 a half step. That gives you F# A C, all of which are in the F#dim scale. The E note is in the Fmaj7, but F#dim, so you have be careful with that one. You can play WH -- I should probably try it <g>.

If the application is more a 7b9, then it may help to recognize that a dim scale is a 7 b9 #9 #11 nat13 scale.
That is, you alter the ninth, raise the 11 and leave the rest alone. That is, it's 13b9#9#11.

In practice, it may help to think something like this. If the chords are Dm9, G7b9 Cmaj7 .. against the G7 you can play an Emaj triad. That gives you 3, 13, b9. Or, you could play Abm9 which gives you b9 3 b13 #9 (not diminished because it isn't the natural 13, but it's close enough that you can handle that difference by ear). You can play Dbmaj, which gives you #11, 7, b9. You can play Bbmaj or Bbmin, again nailing one or another of the alterations.

So, the point is, that the 7b9 takes the HW scale, and you can certainly think about it that way (I hear this in piano all the time) but you don't have to. If you think, instead, about the individual alterations, it becomes just another note choice and not a topic worthy of its own thread.

As a practical matter, and I don't recommend this, I find learning the individual notes of HW and WH to be confusing, for some reason. So, I tend to mentally translate dim7 chord symbols to the 7b9 a whole step up and play the stuff I'd use in that situation. Harmonically, this is a kluge and shouldn't work well. But, if you're just using the theory to avoid clams, it gets you most of the way there. The problem is that it takes a moment to do the transposition and that can screw up the time. Better to be automatic for whatever chord symbol you see.

[55bar]

I just think of 2 four Note minor scales a tritone apart, this way I feel I can play more melodically, over both dim and Dom chords. A lot of older melodies use this idea.


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[pingu]

I just think of 2 four Note minor scales a tritone apart, this way I feel I can play more melodically, over both dim and Dom chords. A lot of older melodies use this idea.


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Ooo I like that ... thanks 55
I like simple !

[EGad]

I love the diminished scale. What beautiful symmetry. I like it to transition from the IV back to I in a blues. Lots of interesting ideas if you think of it as having all of the notes of a Dom 7 AND its tritone sub.

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[Doublea A]

True about the horn and piano players.

Simply descending the scale a full two octaves or more is a cool sound, as long as you have a good resolution. If you start with the root on a downbeat, then the #11 will be emphasized, along with the root. If you start on the #9, then the 13 will be emphasized, along with the #9. I find these sound better than starting on the b9, 3rd, 5th, or b7.

It's all about the resolution


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[Runepune]

I like the w/h's symmetrical dominant tonality. Four dominant 7's with somewhat ambiguous directions. And I enjoy that every position up the neck has identical fingering

Try visualising and arpeggiating these four majors in each position (which is identical :-) of the diminished scale. Using the CAGED "system" you get to use either CAGE or AGED

Write your own chord notation for improvising, switching out V7b9's/dim's with some of these dom7's. E.g over Dm-G7(b9)-C improvise over Dm-E7(b9)-C. For the Fmaj7-F#dim-Gm mentioned, improvise over e.g. Fmaj7-B7-Gm or Fmaj7-Ab7-Gm.

[Doublea A]

Here's one I noticed in Cannonball's "Autumn Leaves" solo:

The chromatic scale - phrased three notes at a time, followed by a rest or ghost note - outlines diminished harmony. On a G7 you would start on the root, #9, #11 or 13. So, starting on the #11, for example, you would play C#, C, B, rest, Bb, A, Ab, rest, G, Gb, F, rest, E, Eb, D, etc. As always, I guess the trick is how to resolve it. One obvious spot is with the G, Gb, F - which could easily be considered part of a blues lick of the target C chord.

I love this idea. As always the trick is in the resolution.
Which would lead me to ask about the rhythm that is being used with these phrases.
I would suspect that the rhythm is (all in eighth notes ) rest-and-2-and-rest-and-4-and / rest-and-2-and-rest-and-4-and, followed by a resolution some sort.

[Guitarzen]

I find the harmonic aspects of the diminished scale to be the most interesting thing about it. For those of you who like thinking and playing in triads, the diminished scale is the king of triads -- it has more triads than any other scale. For example, the C diminished scale has all these triads: C, Cmin, Cdim, Dbdim, Eb, Ebm, Ebdim, Edim, F#, F#m, F#dim, Gdim, A, Am, Adim, Bbdim. Yes that is 12 different triads. We haven't even gotten into all the interesting 4 note chords you can make. I also like to mix my diminished scale with my altered scale, since they have a lot in common. For example, the difference between C half-whole & the C alt scale (Db melodic minor), is the HW contains the natural 5 and 13, and the alt scale has the b13. Another way of looking at it is the HW has 2 notes that the alt scale doesn't, and the alt scale contains 1 note that the HW doesn't, but otherwise all other notes in C alt, are contained in C HW.. What this means, at least to me, is I can easily go back and forth between those scales and easily mix them. I like playing really chromatic and semi-atonal anyways, so they work well together to my ears. It also reminds me of something Gary Burton said in one of his videos for the coursera jazz improvisation class -- he stated that he uses the natural 5 as part of his alt scale, or at least that it can be used.

[princeplanet]

...he stated that he uses the natural 5 as part of his alt scale, or at least that it can be used.

Yeah, I like including the 5th, and like to swap between nat13th and b13th in alt Dom contexts, resolving to maj or minor. All those wasted years practicing my Alt scales- I shoulda just concentrated on the HW dim instead...

[christianm77]

Yeah, I like including the 5th, and like to swap between nat13th and b13th in alt Dom contexts, resolving to maj or minor. All those wasted years practicing my Alt scales- I shoulda just concentrated on the HW dim instead...

Ha, well it depends on your style. I like the altered scale in certain situations myself (usually on a V7 or III7 chord in functional changes.)

That CST book, for instance gives you the options, but it's up to the musician to work out the music side of it and do the listening.

b9b13nat5 - well that's Bebop
Tritone sub - Bebop special effect
H/W I think of as a real Miles Quintet era thing...
Altered is more 60s?

b13th b9th, nat5 is very much what I call 'minor key.' I think of the 7b9 as a 'minor key dominant' - this is what it was to Bach etc. This to my ears is a separate and distinct sound from the altered dominant which must also take a b5.

Needless to say, all the dominants can be freely altered as much as you like in lines, but it can sound a bit much on VI7 for instance. You may disagree, that's why it's music and not maths, though.

The dim scale unites these options into one scale, so in a sense is quite neutral. TBH I don't really enjoy the sound of this scale, and prefer it lurk in the background, but maybe I'll get into it.