Limiting yourself to a single position

[Badge]

After a couple of years enjoying chord melody, I really want to be able to improvise freely. Ever hear Martino's Sunny? That's where I want to go in my own way.

I am going to use Joe Elliott's approach spiced with a few of my own ideas.

I can scat, hum etc. great improv ideas but getting that out of the fretboard is another story. I have a good understanding of theory etc and know the ingredients for the recipe so to speak.

I have come to the view that the many alternative fingerings and positions on the guitar are actually a hindrance for hobby players like myself (but of course a joy if you can master them) when it comes to single note improv. Mastering all arps/scales, getting single note progressions under my fingers and getting the necessary intuition to improvise, in every single position (or even a few of them) is something I simply don't think I will have a hope of achieving, at least until I retire and have more time. And I don't want to wish away the next 20 years of my life.

So I'm considering concentrating solely on a single position for a while - Joe Elliott's major major pattern 1 and minor pattern 2 (same thing really) - and getting all arps, scales, licks etc ingrained there before even contemplating moving on. Really ingrained - perhaps not ever moving on. To be able to express my music freely in one spot and moving position as required but using the same grid/ pattern.

I want the guitar to respond to my ideas like a kazoo - rather than a complex instrument with many many alternatives that I cannot master in this lifetime.

I know there are limitations in this approach (e.g. No leaping intervals) but can live with these for now.

This approach seems to work for blues/ rock players. Many of them don't even know the notes they are playing but have absolute confidence in their blues grid and muscle memory across their changes. (I don't like blues and it is less complex than jazz but I still appreciate a great blues player).

Ideally of course, I could improv jazz guitar in multiple positions and maybe I'll get there one day. But not for a long time.

I don't mean chords. I have the drop 2s and 3s with inversions in all positions (that took me years!) which of course is great for chord melody and provides good filling for improv.

Has anyone followed a similar limited approach and how did you go?

Any views n the Elliott approach too?

[princeplanet]

You wanna blow like Martino's Sunny? Then you better be prepared to move all around the fingerboard. But I'm not sure what you mean by staying in one position, do you mean negotiating key changes without moving? Like say playing ATTYA in the 7th position without moving out? If so, I think that is a brilliant way to learn, provided you do the same exercise in the other 4 positions, or even just the other 3 if you want to have a position for each of your drop 2 or 3 inversions.

But if you mean just learning one finger pattern for everything, then I'm afraid everyone will tell you that's as daft as knowing just one chord grip for every type of chord you play. Jazz is about 1000 times more complex than blues/rock, but that's great news! Keeps you occupied for life. You can get good at noodling one position pentatonics in just a few months, from scratch. I did when I was a kid, so did millions. But to blow like Benson, Martino, Wes etc, that should keep you busy for the rest of your life. And yes, I know that those guys got pretty in good in just about 10 years, but they're freaks of nature. Not just one in a million, closer to one in 100 million....

There are no short cuts, and I should know, I've been looking for them all my life!

[DanielleOM]

I am looking at Sheryl Bailey's Bebop Dojo essentials Truefire Video.

There's a lot of 5th position work using the chord pattern for Autumn Leaves. Root to root, 3rd to 3rd, 5th to 5th and 7th to 7th.

[bako]

There's much that can be learned from playing within the limits of one position (5 frets),
but I look at that as a prototype for the intervals and shapes that are to be found in every position in different keys.

Since you have the skill and creativity to sing lines that you like, consider recording your vocalized soloing
and transcribing yourself.

[rio]

Jimmy Bruno teaches like that and for 20 bucks a month you can sign up online with him. I did it for a couple years around 10 years ago and it has been the foundation of my playing and practice since then because it is so straightforward and failproof if you put in the time. It is related to playing the five positions and learning to play each one equally, restricting yourself in practice and then in performance you feel like the whole neck opens up with fresh and new ideas rather than running the same phrases into the ground. I actually just re-enrolled last week since I needed some accountability to my practicing. The website is jbguitarworkshop.com.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Badge]

Thank u for comments. I am sure we are all over complicating it. If you close your eyes and just listen , you wouldn't know if the player is in one position or all over the fretboard. Information overload etc.

[princeplanet]

Look, I personally like to move around as little as possible, and if you close your eyes you can hear it! Players who move around a lot are using their 3 stronger fingers and slide around a lot. The difference in sound is huge. I like more chromaticism than most so my personal approach suits me better, but you may want to sound like a 3 finger slider, in which case you'll need to alter your approach dramatically.

And this stuff absolutely is complicated at the elite level. Years of trial and error, picking up the once percenters along the way. Now if you just wanna be a basic player, sure you can avoid some of the complications, but you did say Martino, so......

[bako]

Badge,

I was agreeing with you, at least as in a limited time way. I shortened my post and I see now that my intent was
rendered unclear by doing so.

One position (5 frets) contains 2 and 1/3 octaves of the chromatic scale plus one unison note.
There is much more music in one position to be found than most take advantage of.
That's decent range for many things but you may find that if you want to play a melody in a certain octave
in a certain key that it is not always possible. Some slides, bends, hammer ons and pull offs are not available.
Also, different places to play the same notes offer different tone colors. I suspect on extended listening with
eyes closed, I could tell the difference.

I did much study of playing in a single position in all keys. To stay in one position means that you take what you get,
the good and the less good. Some keys offer friendlier shapes than others. Oddly enough, I found that it requires
many more different fingerings than a 5 positions approach.

I call it a prototype for all positions because what I learned was instantly transferable to other positions.
This was supported by the fact that I knew the notes on the fingerboard well and was good at instantly
spelling different structures in all keys. This allowed me to instantly apply the shapes I was now more familiar
with from a single position, anywhere.

In pursuit of kazoo hood guitardom, I think learning to play what you are singing is the best path to that end.
Not every player has the clarity of ideas to consistently sing quality content as you do. Take advantage of your strengths.

[dot75]

I am looking at Sheryl Bailey's Bebop Dojo essentials Truefire Video.

There's a lot of 5th position work using the chord pattern for Autumn Leaves. Root to root, 3rd to 3rd, 5th to 5th and 7th to 7th.

I attended a mini workshop she did last year, her advice was to pick a tune you like, find the original sheet music (ie not real book & especially not some jazz musician's version), record yourself playing shell voicings through the changes & play arps over that starting on the Root, 3rd, 5th & 7th, ascending & descending & then alternate - this time connecting the lines via the nearest chord tone. Do this in each of the five positions for five or six tunes & then it gets easier...seems good advice.

[Badge]

Thanks all I appreciate your views. Well, here I go, im going to turn my 6 string into a very expensive kazoo! I'll let you know how it goes.

[Badge]

I attended a mini workshop she did last year, her advice was to pick a tune you like, find the original sheet music (ie not real book & especially not some jazz musician's version), record yourself playing shell voicings through the changes & play arps over that starting on the Root, 3rd, 5th & 7th, ascending & descending & then alternate - this time connecting the lines via the nearest chord tone. Do this in each of the five positions for five or six tunes & then it gets easier...seems good advice.

Thanks dot. That is the same as what Elliott calls the connecting game.

[princeplanet]

If you wanna get good on the kazoo, you'll still have to practice drills like your connecting game, and plenty more. You hear better lines in your head when you drill your ear as well as your fingers. Otherwise Clifford Brown or Coltrane would not have bothered with their extremely elaborate practice routines. Martino too....

[Badge]

If you wanna get good on the kazoo, you'll still have to practice drills like your connecting game, and plenty more. You hear better lines in your head when you drill your ear as well as your fingers. Otherwise Clifford Brown or Coltrane would not have bothered with their extremely elaborate practice routines. Martino too....

+1 agreed.

Horn players don't bother too much drilling obscure and difficult keys. Footballers don't drill obscure plays. They drill the percentage plays and get them perfect. 80/20 rule etc. that's most pEople though. Then you'll get a freak like Coltrane or Parker etc who blow my theory. But I'm no Coltrane and never will be. Just trying to eliminate following yet more red balloons floating by.

[princeplanet]

+1 agreed.

Horn players don't bother too much drilling obscure and difficult keys. .....

Hmm, you must know a very different breed of horn players to the kind I know....

[TH]

Have you tried using a capo? No shame in a capo. It makes different keys easy. When the piece changes key, just play chords.
Play to your strengths. I'll bet if you went through and worked it out, you could put together a repertoire of tunes with easy key areas you could play with a capo, and just avoid the other tunes.
Life's too short to be limited by things you don't want to do.

David

[princeplanet]

Or skip learning all together and just do this!

Guitar Hero II Cheats and Secrets for XBox 360

[matt.guitarteacher]

Reg mostly organizes from about two positions per chord type. So, for each chord type, or more accurately - each scale degree - he's based out of sixth string root and a fifth string root. The other positions are more like vertical connections to those bases. Of course, the paradox is that, in order to do that, you have to work out of a seven position fingering system basically.

Still, it's a different mindset/philosophy compared to learning five or seven positions and then, saying "learn to play everything within each single position without moving".

I'm working on some specific vocabulary acquisition stuff at the moment, and this is kind of where I'm coming from in approaching it. I'll get to the other stuff later on. Right now, I'm really working on getting more MATERIAL in my ears and fingers in a couple of positions, versus really slowly acquiring less material - but EVERYWHERE at once.

For me, "what to play" is probably more important than "where to play", at least for now.

[Donnie]

Have you tried using a capo? No shame in a capo. It makes different keys easy. When the piece changes key, just play chords.
Play to your strengths. I'll bet if you went through and worked it out, you could put together a repertoire of tunes with easy key areas you could play with a capo, and just avoid the other tunes.
Life's too short to be limited by things you don't want to do.

David

I don't always use a capo, but there times when it feels like the best thing to do; especially to change the "voicing" when there's more than one guitarist. TruthHertz, you got this right!

[bako]

My acoustic Taylor has 20 frets, 21 notes X 6 strings = 126 note locations, 45 distinct notes with multiple duplications

vs.

One position 5 frets X 6 strings = 30 note locations, 29 distinct notes and one unison


My former teacher Ted Dunbar, used to say "The entire musical universe can be found within any 5 frets".
Translated, each position contains 2 and 1/3 octaves of the chromatic scale.

Learning to play fluently in all keys in one position is not really a shortcut, easy way out approach.
If you doubt this, try playing a standard you believe you know well within the same 5 frets in all 12 keys,
melody, soloing and whatever chords are available in each key. I consider it an excellent training component
for learning the fingerboard. For many of the same reasons, it is possibly not the best way to avoid guitar
complexities, the one exception being that at least each note location is already predetermined plus
two possible locations for the one unison note.

[matt.guitarteacher]

My acoustic Taylor has 20 frets, 21 notes X 6 strings = 126 note locations, 45 distinct notes with multiple duplications

vs.

One position 5 frets X 6 strings = 30 note locations, 29 distinct notes and one unison


My former teacher Ted Dunbar, used to say "The entire musical universe can be found within any 5 frets".
Translated, each position contains 2 and 1/3 octaves of the chromatic scale.

Learning to play fluently in all keys in one position is not really a shortcut, easy way out approach.
If you doubt this, try playing a standard you believe you know well within the same 5 frets in all 12 keys,
melody, soloing and whatever chords are available in each key. I consider it an excellent training component
for learning the fingerboard. For many of the same reasons, it is possibly not the best way to avoid guitar
complexities, the one exception being that at least each note location is already predetermined plus
two possible locations for the one unison note.

I originally thought, from the thread title, that this was going to be more of the discussion.

ron eschete talks about basically learning to play everything in one position on the fretboard at first. When you learn a new tune in a new key, you learn different fingering patterns etc. by default, you did learn how to cover the entire fretboard eventually by basically limiting things initially.

I've always found this really compelling. I may have to spend some time dedicated to this eventually.

[bako]

At Jazzmobile, I used to watch Ted demonstrate weekly play a standard, one or a few choruses in all 12 keys.
Not only did he get through this, he made it musical, shifting octaves as needed, aware of voicings available
within the position. He played as Reg says improvised, not worked out material.
I found this compelling enough. Makes sense, if you can do a lot within a limitation, you can then do more
when the restrictions are removed.

[JazzinNY]

Well, people use positions to mean 2 things: CAGED, or the classical position ie 5th position has "1" finger on 5th fret.

I'm still waiting for a post like "I use CAGED, I practice everything in the 5 positions, and it all makes sense now, and here's a sample of my terrific playing."

I mean, post one, in about 5 years of following this forum.

I agree that limiting yourself to one part of the fretboard is a good short-term strategy. Simplify and play something. Then the long-term goal is to learn more of the fretboard.

P.S. I wish I could post a sample from a video -- but it's not on Youtube. From the "Killer B3" documentary about jazz organ. The last performance piece by Tony Monaco has a fantastic guitar solo where the guy's hand stays anchored in one place.

[JGinNJ]

In my formative studies of guitar many years ago I think I inadvertently did what you're describing. I learned a lot of stuff (tunes, scales) in 5th position, and it's still my go-to. Likewise with chords, I learned them up and down the neck, to a point, but found my go-to chord shapes, too.

That can serve you for a lot of playing, just like blues players can get by with a limited range of scales & chords.
But it's exactly that, it's limited.

I came back to studying with a teacher last year, and it's filling in the gaps and expanding my knowledge. Yes it's been work, a lot of practice, but the result is worth it. It's actually easier when you have a bigger vocabulary and more fluency.

Don't limit yourself!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Well, people use positions to mean 2 things: CAGED, or the classical position ie 5th position has "1" finger on 5th fret.

I'm still waiting for a post like "I use CAGED, I practice everything in the 5 positions, and it all makes sense now, and here's a sample of my terrific playing."

I don't recall anyone saying EXACTLY that, but a lot of people use that approach, even if they call it something else. Joe Pass was admittedly a CAGED player, regardless of specific labels or terminology. That was his view of fretboard stuff. Honestly, I don't like the kind of debates over "the CAGED method".

It doesn't exist. There is no CAGED "METHOD". It's a myth /legend of the jazz guitar forum. It's like saying "I've never heard anyone in five years talk about what a great player they are because they use the EGBDF or FACE method".

It's simply a physics/theory/layout thing, as opposed to a "method". In a sense, we are all CAGED players,... all EGBDF/FACE players. We are all quarter notes and eighth note players, but that's not a "method".

[princeplanet]

I don't recall anyone saying EXACTLY that, but a lot of people use that approach, even if they call it something else. Joe Pass was admittedly a CAGED player, regardless of specific labels or terminology. That was his approach. Honestly, I don't like the kind of debates over "the CAGED method".

It doesn't exist. There is no CAGED "METHOD". It's a myth /legend of the jazz guitar forum. It's like saying "I've never heard anyone in five years talk about what a great player they are because they use the EGBDF or FACE method".

It's simply a physics/theory/layout thing, as opposed to a "method". In a sense, we are all CAGED players,... all EGBDF/FACE players. We are all quarter notes and eighth note players, but that's not a "method".

Well maybe CAGED is not a "method", but it definitely is a means of organisation, or even conception. In much the same way that resting your fingers on certain keys on your laptop fingerboard provides you with a reference. Or not. Some of us have no specific technique when we type, it could be whatever finger is closest, or just 2 fingers. But I can't tell what your typing technique is, or how you "conceive" your organisation in that respect. I just go by the words and their meaning....