-
Actually got a chuckle out of that one. :-) Yeah, I personally found that this process is greatly accelerated in proportion to how much you narrow your focus. "The whole thing" is too much, at least to start.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
-
06-05-2017 02:38 PM
-
You keep talking about 'modal chords'. Is this a Locrian chord? Is that a Phrygian chord? I'm not sure you've been really following all these posts! Originally Posted by Robertkoa
There's no such thing as a 'modal chord'. Modes are what you play over chords. There are just ordinary chords like M7, m7, 7, whatever. It's the notes you play over them that makes the modal sound.
The chords of 'So What' are just Dm7 and Ebm7, right?, but they're not playing D and Eb harmonic minor scales over them. They could, but they're not.
Playing D and Eb Dorian (C and Db major) is what makes it modal. Otherwise it would just sound diatonic.
Modal is when you don't play the expected diatonic scale over the chord or chords. If you have a C chord and play C maj over it, that's diatonic, it's what you expect to hear. When you play G major over it, that becomes the Lydian sound because the F# isn't in the key of C.
Do you get it???!
-
The tradition of voicings used in modal jazz is its own thing. Not usually just the same voicings you'd employ otherwise. So what isn't simply traditional minor sevenths either. Originally Posted by ragman1
You keep talking about 'modal chords'. Is this a Locrian chord? Is that a Phrygian chord? I'm not sure you've been really following all these posts!
There's no such thing as a 'modal chord'. Modes are what you play over chords. There are just ordinary chords like M7, m7, 7, whatever. It's the notes you play over them that makes the modal sound.
The chords of 'So What' are just Dm7 and Ebm7, right?, but they're not playing D and Eb harmonic minor scales over them. They could, but they're not.
Playing D and Eb Dorian (C and Db major) is what makes it modal. Otherwise it would just sound diatonic.
Modal is when you don't play the expected diatonic scale over the chord or chords. If you have a C chord and play C maj over it, that's diatonic, it's what you expect to hear. When you play G major over it, that becomes the Lydian sound because the F# isn't in the key of C.
Do you get it???!
It's also about the combination of voicings you use that's more traditional to a modal jazz sound. I just don't think anyone's assuming that they're exactly the same.
-
G A B C# D E F = G B D F A C# E = GBDF + FAC#E etc.
Does it not?
Modes in the contemporary usage of the word is two things:
1. 7 note scale derived note collections orbiting around a central pitch which yields melodies using the colors
of the harmonic extension. Each mode has certain characteristic intervals that clarify it's uniqueness.
These notes can be played one at a time or in coalitions (chords).
2. When viewed from the perspective of chord/scale relationships, the modes change in sync with the movement of
the harmonic areas of the progression. These notes can be played one at a time or in coalitions (chords).
In any case, this is the way I think about it.
-
No what I am talking about is much beyond that...
go to the Modal Chords I don't agree with the light and dark thing- don't hear it.
PREVIOUSLY - I have thought of Parent Keys instead of Modes so I have a broader Pallet of Notes and ideas and literally more ' spots' on the Fingerboard to Play if I want Dorian...etc. versus merely a Scale- just how I Play- easier to think that way.
So someone might learn a separate fingering for Dorian and play a Cmajor scale 2 to 2 with the notes all bunched up in close intervals and in alphabetical order...where I might use a lot of the Parent Key arps and arp fragments...the 6 Subset Pentatonics from C major etc . are all Dorian if someone's playing strong Dminor Vamps etc.
So EARLIER in the thread - I was thinking there can't be much Harmonic Material in a Beatles Tune to cause it to be ' Dorian ' - although I suppose you could look at Cadences...
Like a Minor Tune with a Minor v would suggest a
Mode by Placement- suggest Dorian- if you really 'sell' the D minor as the i chord and you go to iv and v minor - it suggests Dorian - but ALL the structures are still Enharmonic- so there CAN'T be a 'Modal Chord'.
BUT - the Youtube Search Engine on my Phone ( which knows all) - put the Rick Beato Video there about' Light and Dark' Keys or Modulations-
BAD TITLE -"I don' t believe in Light or Dark Keys or light and dark Modulations...
BUT- later in the Video he demonstrates MODAL CHORDS which actually lean VERY strongly in the Direction of a Mode AND accomplishes Direct Modulations with no dominant chord needed which usually works.
And SOME of the Voicings sound good - not a purely intellectual thing.
I am a Physical/ Rhythmic ear type Guitar Player need more mapping of Fingerboard etc. and more complete Theory - but some of these I can USE ...
Not just an intellectual exercise.
So these ' Modal Chords ' get the stronger identity because of the minor second or ( inversion) flat ninth
and diminished 5th sometimes.
Listen to the Examples...
Now for those of you who play Standards - you just need one *11 note chord for the whole Tune - lol.
* Not Really
So listen to the Piano and Guitar Voicings- Beato says much of the Character of the Modes is the location of the half steps in the Scale- I knew that -
BUT it works Harmonically as well to a large extent.
Light and Dark Keys ? I don't care or believe that one
....
Another test of these ' Modal Voicings' is they DO accomplish a Non Dominant Direct Modulation to Distant Keys ( some more than others ) successfully.
Which is more difficult with more Conventional Voicings....again if you are not a Writer - you won't care but it is a small additional resource for me ..
I am interested in getting away sometimes from Circle of Fifths or Fourths Chord Successions - there are other more* powerful ways to do it than this but still it is a Real Thing to my ears.
*Still using the Tritone Harmonically but resolving differently..for example.Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-07-2017 at 02:54 PM.
-
It sounds to me like you're making it very complicated.
There's nothing inherent about a particular voicing that makes it "modal," but there are voicings players will use in modal tunes that have a particular desired sound...the stack 'o fourths in "So What" comes to mind, or the sus chords in "Maiden Voyage." I watched a bit of that Beato video and the sus4/3 chords are another very "modal" sound, a chord type, not a specific voicing, persay, but that type of chord in general.
But what's really happening is just what bako said.
I suppose you could think about modal progressions (like the I--IV mixolydian jam evey crappy hippie band used. heck, the good ones used it too) but if we're talking jazz, that's not as common (not unheard of, but not common)
Why don't we take a tune and apply some of this instead of talking about it in the abstract?
-
Because that's the way they were taught to/learned to improvise. Originally Posted by p4chuss2
It's not the only way, although running scales and arps through a progression will certainly help you through it. I'm not sure if it's possible to improvise freely in a jazz context without this knowledge.
This is overwhelming when looked at it in totality, so a teacher or course is very useful to at least break it down into manageable chunks. You need to enjoy the process of learning all this stuff, because there will never be any end to it.
To find a way in? Start by learning some licks and work out what bits of the song they happen on. Then see if you string together into a new combination. Most people learn II-V-I's because that's a common progression, so you can learn II-V-I licks and play them on that progression. It's not really improvisation, but it's a start. do whatever you have to, use tabs, videos etc. But don't confuse this early stage for actual jazz musicianship. It's like cycling with training wheels.2) I am definitely not Joe Pass, or Django, so just picking up the guitar, hearing the changes and playing through them with beautiful lines is not possible for me right now
I have to find another way
Above all - listen, listen, listen while you are making these first steps.
The way it's worked for me - you learn scales, arps, passing tones, scale patterns, chromatic neighbours, various rhythms and so on. You then listen carefully to records of your favourite players and puzzle out what they are doing with these raw materials.
Rinse and repeat for the rest of your life.
Through years of tortuous hard work and an unreasonable resistance to giving in.3) How do many jazz players play fast cool lines on so many bars? There must be a previous learning of the sounds and possibilities. I cannot have that full creativity all the time
4) I liked the concept of seeing a whole and not just a bar with a chord and the nice example. I am however too far away from that right now. Any tips are welcome !!I visualise arpeggios. Sometimes. Sometimes my fingers do a thing and I'm like, 'OK.'5) Are you really saying that you don't visualize or see the scales arpeggios that you "are" on? Or that you can't arpeggiate a tune from beginning to end? If you do, any tips on visualizing it ?
I just practiced lots and lots of arpeggios through tunes, nice and slow. And scales. I still do it when getting to know a song. Also the melody. It's raw materials.
You just have to play them all over the neck lots and lots and lots and lots. There is no short cut.Last edited by christianm77; 06-07-2017 at 11:27 AM.
-
Absolutely, there are combinations of chords that lend themselves to modal sounds and improvisations. So there may be modal-friendly chord progressions. 'So What' uses sus chords but I wouldn't necessarily call them 'modal chords'. I think that would probably lead to much confusion. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Quartal chords, maybe? Although, as Mr. Beaumont pointed out, the I-IV is not really modal at all. And, as bako said, it's about certain harmonic areas or a combination of chords pointing to them.
-
Absolutely. How about 'Footprints'? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
-
To be honest I think it's not quite correct... Originally Posted by ragman1
You keep talking about 'modal chords'. Is this a Locrian chord? Is that a Phrygian chord? I'm not sure you've been really following all these posts!
There's no such thing as a 'modal chord'. Modes are what you play over chords. There are just ordinary chords like M7, m7, 7, whatever. It's the notes you play over them that makes the modal sound.
The chords of 'So What' are just Dm7 and Ebm7, right?, but they're not playing D and Eb harmonic minor scales over them. They could, but they're not.
Playing D and Eb Dorian (C and Db major) is what makes it modal. Otherwise it would just sound diatonic.
Modal is when you don't play the expected diatonic scale over the chord or chords. If you have a C chord and play C maj over it, that's diatonic, it's what you expect to hear. When you play G major over it, that becomes the Lydian sound because the F# isn't in the key of C.
Do you get it???!
Diatonic is not quite opposite to modal... it just became common to use diatonic for functional. Though diatonic is opposite to chromatic and both are possible in functional and modal harmony.
Playing c major scale over C major chord can be both functional or modal it depends on context...
Modality is first of all a different organization where other aspects than functional come forth...
The esiest way to get modal sound to me is to focus on intervalic sounds and accent charaterestic pitches if scale through rhythmic placing and repetition
?????????? ? ????? SM-G570F ????? Tapatalk
-
Visualizing the Fretboard notes | Henry Robinett Guitar Lessons
I did this real quick. I hope it's germane still. I may have gotten off topic, I don't know. I always record my live lessons, so I was set it for it.
-
Wow , Henry. Feel free to "audio post" anytime. Love your voice and thoughts, but coupled with your playing....A great three minutes.Thanks so much for posting and taking the time. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
-
Thanks Henry ....
When and if possible in the Future ..it will be very interesting to hear (audio) what you are doing in current/ future ..Recording Projects.
Haha..he does have a 'Radio Ready' Voice.Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-07-2017 at 08:17 PM.
-
Ha! Thanks guys! Appreciate it. Lol. Well I did have a gig, too few, cancel this weekend. Death of jazz clubs marches forward.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Ah, no I don't think you're right. Ask Richie Beirach, McCoy, Herbie, Chick. All kinds of modal chords. Actually I think it's backwards to just think of Dmin as Dorian. Dorian is REALLY a drone on a D root with clusters, grouping of 4ths, 3rds whatever's on top. Some modal sings are written as E Phrygian. That's NOT E minor.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Well, I guess if folks want to think of chords as modal there's no law against it. Quartal, and even quintal, chords are not necessarily used modally. They often are but they're certainly not specific to it. Originally Posted by Jonah
I mean, someone might see or hear a D sus - x5556x - and say 'that's a modal chord'. What they mean is 'That's a chord often used in modal jazz tunes'. Or a power chord - 577xxx - and say 'that's a rock chord'.
In musical history the first interval was probably the 5th, then the 4th. The 3rd didn't arrive till much later. So going back to fourths and fifths is actually the backward step. There's nothing new... etc etc.Last edited by ragman1; 06-08-2017 at 12:13 AM.
-
Basically yes, quartal chords are modal. Basically. Listen to McCoy with Coltrane. Or Corea's Now He Sings, Now He Sobs.
It's a bastardization thinking of CHORDS modally. Its actually a bone of contention with me. Modes are a very specific thing. They're NOT tertiary harmony. But it's been bastardized to be.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by henryrobinett; 06-07-2017 at 11:39 PM.
-
The concept of using MODES to play on chords is a bastardized way of explaining how to improvise on chords. It works in a simplified way. This is my take. But still it drives me a little nuts. I do teach it with a caveat.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
What do you mean by 'basically'? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
-
Huh? It means mainly, not always.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Certainly not always. After the Middle Ages stuff, Beethoven, Wagner, and others were all using fourths. It's nothing new and its very early use (think even before Ancient Greece) was not tertiary because they hadn't really discovered the 3rd sound. It may have been Bach who sorted it all out. But I'm not an expert.
But, to be fair, modern jazz is using the quartal and modal sound irrespective of its history. And you can still play diatonically over quartal chords if you want to :-)
-
Of course you can. And I'm not talking about diatonic fourths. I'm referring to the 4ths that have been traditionally used in jazz since the early 60s. That the sus chord. 4ths. With 1-4-5, or 1-4-b7.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Who said always? This is an argument over semantics. There is no "always" or "never". No rules. I guess you can say that no SINGLE chord in isolation is "modal". Okay? But things don't work that way, and that's not the context of the discussion. Originally Posted by ragman1
"Modal chords" in this discussion has been used to talk about a couple of different things: one being chords with specific characteristic pitches which may or may not imply a specific mode. Is a m7b9 a phrygian chord? Honestly, I don't care.
The other usage in this thread has been more to do with traditions, and those you can't argue with quite as much. There are certain common practice ways of dealing with chords in modal jazz for quite a few decades now. If you talk about "so what" chord voicings among jazzers, no one is going to get bent out of shape and argue about the fact that those voicings existed before that tune, because it doesn't matter. It doesn't change the basic fact that everyone knows what you're talking about when you describe something away.
It's all just shorthand in human communication, semantics.
-
^^^ yes. But rag, it was you who said there was no such thing as a modal chord, wasn't it? Or have I confused you with someone else?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
Cheap Old French gypsy jazz guitar (Busato model...
Today, 07:03 AM in For Sale