Help with blue seven

[boel]

Hi everybody!!
Working on Blue Seven by Sonny Rollins I found a Bb7b5 chord....
Could someone tell me what is the role and use of this chord in a blues??
( I have read that often a 7b5 chord can be think as a tritone sub...but i don't know if this is the case )

[ragman1]

Are the changes you're using actually 7b5's or is it merely implied in the melody? In the version I've seen, the b5 note appears over all 3 chords, not just the Bb7, and the chords are played as just regular 7's.

If it was me, I'd listen to what Rollins himself is doing. I wouldn't copy it exactly but I'd have a look to see what notes he's using to get the effect.

[bobby d]

Nice Blues tune and jam. Flat 5 is just one of the blue notes IMO and it sounds good with dom7 chords in blues. You can also hear Miles play it on Freddie Freeloader among many other Blues/Jazz recordings.

[boel]

In my version b5 appears only on Bb7b5...not imply in the armony

[ragman1]

In my version b5 appears only on Bb7b5...not imply in the armony

So you're saying the chord progression is:

Bb7b5 - Eb7 - Bb7b5 - %
Eb7 - % - Bb7b5 - %
F7 - Eb7 - Bb7b5 - F7


we'll get there eventually...

[ragman1]

I've never looked at a chart for it, but Rollins is frequently outlining 13#11's, while the piano accompanies with 13#11 voicings. The piano solo takes a more "normal" blues approach, but still throws in some #11 stuff, notably on the IV chord.

On the Eb7 now, not the Bb7b5?

I think the OP should show us his whole chart, preferably with melody, before we go any further!

Not enough information.

[ragman1]

I don't need to see the chart, I have the record.

Me too, but boel refers to his particular version (he says 'in my version').

That's why I'm asking what that version is, and also suggesting he listen to the Rollins original so we're not all talking at cross purposes.

[boel]

this is the version..

[ColinO]

Looking at the lead sheet, if I were to guess, the brackets around the b5 refers to the fact that the b5 appears in the melody. Ie Fb=E. I doubt I would bother to play it in the harmony but I would probably avoid playing the natural 5. In the chart above, Blues By Five, he did the same thing with the b9s.

[ragman1]

Thanks, boel.

You see the point. Here's one from the internet and it's different!



This is why I thought we should go back to the original recording to see what they do. You don't have to copy it, of course. The thing about jazz, bless it, is you can play it how you like, more or less.

Anyway, from what I can hear from the recording, it's a bit indeterminate... it's a bit of both those versions.

So what I'd do personally is this. I'd play ordinary blues (Bb mixo/blues scale) over the Bb7 then switch to Bb lydian dominant (F melodic minor) over the Bb7b5. That would be your bridging scale to the Eb7. Then, over the Eb7, I'd play Bb melodic minor. Or mix it in with Eb mixo. Over the F7, as you know on a blues, you can sort of do what you want.

But experiment and see what you want to do. If it sounds good, it is.

[ragman1]

I've done this quickly. The backing is all shell voicings, i.e. no 5ths so nothing clashes.

I've emphasized the b5 notes where they occur in the first head. As you can hear, it can sound a bit miserable (!) so I've played it a bit prettier and more traditional in the solos for contrast. I think that works. At one point, probably from habit, I used the Bb whole-half diminished into the Eb7 instead of the F melodic minor, but no harm done.

[boel]

thanks a lot for your suggestions!!! All of you

[ragman1]

Boel -

Thanks, but just to confuse you further, and for a bit of fun, here's a b5 version of Blue Seven, otherwise known as BS :-)

What I did was played only F, Bb and C mel over the first solo. Then B, E and F# mel over the second. I was pretending it was in E, you see, which is the tritone of Bb.

It's okay if you like far out stuff... which you might, I don't know

[mr. beaumont]

Don't overthink this one! It's a simple blues, with b5's (#11's?) built right into the melody. Bam--E natural on the second half of the Bb, A natural on Eb, B natural on F...

So it's a blues that emphasizes the blue notes. And it's damn brilliant.

[ragman1]

And it's damn brilliant.

Oh, I'm not sure it's that 'brilliant', Jeff, it's the sort of experimental-type thing that experienced players try. Let's stick all the b5's in!

In my view, anyway. I tried it myself once, many moons ago, before I ever knew about this one. I tried a similar thing with all the #5's too, as I recall

[mr. beaumont]

I'm not sure there's anything "experimental" about a b5 in jazz

But seriously, the b5's are in the melody. Players reference melody in their improv, right? So you hear the tension (maybe one of the "tensest" of tensions) as melody. That's what's fun about it.

[ragman1]

I'm not sure there's anything "experimental" about a b5 in jazz

Nothing, but sticking them all in a head on every chord is something else.

[ragman1]

To me, it really sounds as though he is playing off the minor (i.e. actually "thinking" of the F minor over the Bb7).

Easier on a guitar, I imagine, because you can just use the shape or position, and they're moveable. I don't know how wind players do it. Do they have different fingerings for every note, every scale? Sounds difficult to me.

[boel]

Do you think there is a better version of the real book??

[ragman1]

Oh, no-o-o, impossible, every note they play is always perfect! That's why we dullards spend so much time analysing their strange mysterious sounds, to find the secret musical meaning...

and we DO, haven't you noticed? :-)

[mr. beaumont]

I think the charts are fine. I was wondering whether Sonny may have played a wrong note on the recording.

Anybody here play tenor? How different is the fingering for an Ab vs. a G nat?

I agree fuzz, it does seem like it could be a mistake...not that it matters, of course.