Diminished Scale: Whole-Half for Dim, Half-Whole for Dominant

[VKat]

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There are only three possible variations of this symmetrical scale, and the notes in a dom7 chord will only fit one of them. I don't think about this scale as W-H or H-W. I just see these three possible scales, and a collection of four d(i)om7 chords fitting each

Good thing to keep in mind and a coincise way to approach these pitch collections. Thanks.

[christianm77]

Oh, sure I also heard/read about Dizzy being harmonically enlightened. The question is to what extent but let's leave it as we really can only guess about how much harmonic thinking was involved into their lines.

Concerning rhythm/phrasing: is there much to say about it? For instance I recently read a University thesis (well presented with good examples; it's freely available) comparing styles of C.Parker and Sonny Stitt. Both were great Beboppers.

Parker used to start and end phrases anywhere within the form like those ending in the middle of the dominant leading into tonic and starting his next phrase in the middle of that tonic. Uneven phrase lengths, unpredictable starts and ends.

Sonny on the other hand most often aligned his phrases with the form making it more even and predictable.

There's loads to say on it. Take Steve Coleman's analysis of Parker for instance...

THE DOZENS: STEVE COLEMAN ON CHARLIE PARKER (edited by Ted Panken & Steve Coleman) | Steve Coleman

I could talk about rhythm all day.

Barry Harris's thoughts on Stitt (BH played with him on some great records) re: rhythm are not.... complimentary BTW.... Seems to regard him as rhythmically limited.

But anything can be picked apart intellectually, or grasped intuitively... Most of use a balance of the two things to learn, taking things apart, putting them back together...

Rhythmically speaking looking at their transcriptions Parker's lines are more syncopated with high rhythmic sophistication unless it's 350 bpm where he tended to play mostly 8th which makes sense

Sonny Stitt's lines rhythmically are more simple with less syncopation and weird rhythmic figures.

Edit: I just realised you must've been talking about accents and articulation as well? Yes, in that resprect as I understnad Bebop was innovative in its use of scattered uneven accents which nevertherless were dependent on the particular musician's style.

I think that's one of the problems in the education materials: too often Bebop is being generalized as if it was a set-rules style without too much individuality. I think my example above of C.Parker and S.Stitt shows clearly they played their own distinctive Bebop species.

1st/2nd gen. 2nd gen was more rhythmically regular in general.

One thing that moved me away from practicing the BH added note scale stuff as much as I did is I found it was making my phrasing a bit regular. Ironically.

[VKat]

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Barry Harris's thoughts on Stitt (BH played with him on some great records) re: rhythm are not.... complimentary BTW.... Seems to regard him as rhythmically limited.
...
1st/2nd gen. 2nd gen was more rhythmically regular in general.

One thing that moved me away from practicing the BH added note scale stuff as much as I did is I found it was making my phrasing a bit regular. Ironically.

Form my recent modest research I did on BebBop I made a conclusion that C.Parker was always in his own special peerless category of Bebop players. That's actually not my conclusion but it comes from the 1974 dissertation of T.Owens (I'm sure you know who he is). What a research by the way!
Looking at the transcriptions of other guys from Parker's circles, namely F.Navarro I don't see as much rhythmic variety as in the man's lines. Mind you Navarro is such a tremendous trumpeter I can't even imagine he was real as I mentioned above.

Are you sure Sonny Stiit belongs to the 2nd generation of Bebop players? Some call his style 'transitional' but I don't think he came to the scene so late that he can be called being 2nd. Closer to the first maybe?

Who else from sax players then in your opinion apart from Parker was in the 1st gen.? That would be interesting to know in order to make a valid comparison of their rhythmic proficiency.
Anyway, I don't think we can find many (if any?) to match up with Parker in rhythmic respect.
I don't think we should talk about drummers?
By the way, Stitt is great. His lines sing.

[christianm77]

I think we should only talk about drummers :-)

[VKat]

I think we should only talk about drummers :-)

Sure, good point for a guitar forum
That proves once again how versatile this instrument is!
You must be familiar with Jon Gomm?

[PMB]

Reminds me of a great story about Parker waiting for Max Roach to arrive at a session. CP was at the drum kit, playing a polyrhythmic figure that Roach himself couldn't replicate.

[VKat]

Reminds me of a great story about Parker waiting for Max Roach to arrive at a session. CP was at the drum kit, playing a polyrhythmic figure that Roach himself couldn't replicate.

Oh, yeah! Bird was the man!