Playing with drummers who are so good that I can't find the pulse easily

**Alter** · 04-07-2017, 02:02 AM

If the drummer is into polyryhthms, sometimes it is challenging not to get lost. Drum playing is language though, like other instruments are, so listening to as much jazz as you can will really help. It's a good idea to kinda check out jazz drumming language evolution, see which drummer did what, and listen to their music a bit. I was able to understand what the drummer was doing, not necessarily out of technical proficiency with rhythms, but because the bass/snare syncopated pattern is pretty familiar in jazz and i guess i 've heard it (or variations of it) often enough. It is rhythmic movement/variation, akin to the melodic/harmonic variations a melodic instrument would do.

Also, even though they might be playing a complicated beat or pulse, drummers are often keeping time on a particular piece of the set (like the cymbal does on your example), so try to develop an ear for that.

Technically speaking, some great study tools for rhythm development are the Dante Agostini books. Work though 1 and 4, and you 're set..

They help develop a sense of pulse besides barlines (by having you follow different/changing time signatures).

**grahambop** · 04-07-2017, 07:19 AM

Get the Drumgenius app and practise playing along to the Jack DeJohnette samples, they are a bit like this, I struggle with them a bit.

(not knocking Jack, I love his drumming, I think it just reflects the fact he is world-class and I am decidedly not!)

**christianm77** · 04-07-2017, 07:29 AM

How about playing with drummers so bad I can't find the pulse easily? ;-)

**grahambop** · 04-07-2017, 07:39 AM

It's hard finding their pulse when they've got big fat arms.

**Jonah** · 04-07-2017, 08:17 AM

One of the best musicians I play with was telling me about a recording session he did with Jeff "Tain" Watts. He could NOT feel the time, yet he knew it was there. The only way he could get through was to keep stomping on the quarter notes with his feet. It didn't SOUND like that. The date included Robert Hurst and Joe Henderson! My friend, whose name I'm excluding, was the pianist.

I had something similar...

I could not get in the time because first they played more or less regular and then the soloist began to solo and the drumer and bassist got such a free timing that I gradually had to completely stop...

Later I analyzed it and thought that it is more about psychology... just something happens that you did not expect or something against the inner pulse you have... they played together a lot before.. for years actually and I was absolutely new guy and with not much experience

The players were polite but pretty tough... I mean I did not have many attempts to try or rehearse it... I understood that if I would be probably excused if stop a couple of times but they expect me to overcome this problem soon.

so I tried to hear and catch something simple and more or less regular in it and just try to pick up these accents to get in... struming muted strings to concentrate on rythm only...

**Jonah** · 04-07-2017, 08:25 AM

Get the Drumgenius app and practise playing along to the Jack DeJohnette samples, they are a bit like this, I struggle with them a bit.

I tried these tracks... I never can manage it by counting..

I just have to get in the flow and then I feel comfortable ... tbh I do not even really undertstand what I am doing then.

One of my teacher (classical) .. when we played ensemble told me a good comparison for timing ...

He said:
Imagine ... the train at a slow speed passing by and you try jump in... and what you do is trying to aim exactly at the door and make a fast precise jump-in... maybe you have a very good reaction and you'll get in there but you'll be all struck, overconcentrated, will loose lots of energy, and most probably you will hurt yourself...
Much more natural way is to try to run along first to get in timing with the train...

**matt.guitarteacher** · 04-07-2017, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Get the Drumgenius app and practise playing along to the Jack DeJohnette samples, they are a bit like this, I struggle with them a bit.

(not knocking Jack, I love his drumming, I think it just reflects the fact he is world-class and I am decidedly not!)

Love the clave option on those kind of things . Kind of get in the groove and then turn it off. Great to quickly get you in playing with more sophisticated feels.

**marcwhy** · 04-07-2017, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Just my two cents, but assuming you're a competent musician, if you're having trouble hearing the downbeat in the drums, you aren't playing with a very good drummer.

I was hoping someone would say this!

If you're playing with cats named Paul Motian (RIP), Vinnie Colaiuta, or Adam Nussbaum, then good for you! Otherwise, drummers should keep the beat.

**ghoststrat** · 04-07-2017, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

One of my teacher (classical) .. when we played ensemble told me a good comparison for timing ...

He said:
Imagine ... the train at a slow speed passing by and you try jump in... and what you do is trying to aim exactly at the door and make a fast precise jump-in... maybe you have a very good reaction and you'll get in there but you'll be all struck, overconcentrated, will loose lots of energy, and most probably you will hurt yourself...
Much more natural way is to try to run along first to get in timing with the train...

This is really good.

**ghoststrat** · 04-07-2017, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by marcwhy

I was hoping someone would say this!

If you're playing with cats named Paul Motian (RIP), Vinnie Colaiuta, or Adam Nussbaum, then good for you! Otherwise, drummers should keep the beat.

I may not have been clear, but the drummer was *definitely* keeping solid time, solid groove, etc. There was nothing wrong with his playing, as evidenced by the rest of the group stomping a**.

**Hupia** · 04-07-2017, 09:29 PM

Great conversation! It reminds me of this story from Ethan Iverson's blog about a gig with Charlie Haden and Paul Motian:

"Unfortunately, Charlie insisted on playing the canonical Evans piece “Blue and Green,” a song I didn’t want to play, especially with Paul, especially at the Vanguard within sight of the black-and-white photo of Evans and Motian between sets. Charlie likes a specific kind of comping on ballads, and frequently explains this to his pianists. A few nights into the “Blue and Green” torture chamber, Paul began playing very strongly in another tempo, unrelated to Charlie’s. The bass solo began, and Charlie kept his time while Paul kept his. I panicked and quit playing. In the kitchen afterwards, Charlie began to explain yet again how he wanted me to comp. I said, right as Paul came in, “But I couldn’t understand where Paul was playing the beat!” Charlie looked at me, incredulous. “You were listening to Paul Motian? Never listen to Paul Motian!” Paul grinned and didn’t say anything."

Here's the whole thing, if you're interested:

The Paradox of Continuity | DO THE M@TH

I guess the take-away lesson for me is that we don't just have to adjust our playing to different situations, but also our listening... how we listen or what we listen to.. in order to make everything fit. This is something I haven't been able to test out very much, since I'm not good enough to play out much, but at least I'll have it as a possibility for the future.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 04-07-2017, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by ghoststrat

I may not have been clear, but the drummer was *definitely* keeping solid time, solid groove, etc. There was nothing wrong with his playing, as evidenced by the rest of the group stomping a**.

I would love to be in that position. How are you with polyrhythmic feels? Switching between doubletime etc?

I'd really be interested in hearing back from you after talking to this drummer by the way. I'm thinking there's probably nothing a drummer would rather talk about than what they're actually doing, If they ever get anyone who's interested in it.

Also, can I ask what the context was? Are you guys playing standards for teens you know ? Charts? Or just jamming?

Anyway, sorry about the number of questions. I'm just curious . I have had occasion to play with really excellent drummers in the past and am pretty jealous of what you're doing. Talk to your drummer.

**dasein** · 04-10-2017, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

One of the best musicians I play with was telling me about a recording session he did with Jeff "Tain" Watts. He could NOT feel the time, yet he knew it was there. The only way he could get through was to keep stomping on the quarter notes with his feet. It didn't SOUND like that. The date included Robert Hurst and Joe Henderson! My friend, whose name I'm excluding, was the pianist.

This is good advice. If you go to a lot of shows, you will be surprised at how many top tier musicians you see tapping quarter notes with their foot. There's no shame in this.

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Just my two cents, but assuming you're a competent musician, if you're having trouble hearing the downbeat in the drums, you aren't playing with a very good drummer.

Sorry, but things like free time have been a part of jazz vernacular since AT least the 60's. More time has passed between the present and Miles Davis' Plugged Nickel recordings than the time between the Plugged Nickel recordings and Louis Armstrong.

This type of playing is as much a part of jazz as "Body and Soul" and hi-hat on 2&4.

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Just my humble opinion, but the job of a rhythm section is to keep the band cued in on where the time and the groove is. A rhythm section that doesn't is not a good rhythm section. They are on some sort of ego trip showing off their chops or putting down the rest of the band.

It is your responsibility to keep your own pulse.

A good way to get a rhythm section to hate you? Expect them to babysit you.

**Hupia** · 04-10-2017, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by dasein

It is your responsibility to keep your own pulse.

A good way to get a rhythm section to hate you? Expect them to babysit you.

Great point. Here's a lesson from Hal Galper on a similar topic:

**FZ2017** · 04-12-2018, 01:15 AM

Anybody got on opinion on Art Blakey not as a leader but as a drummer. I wonder how he stacks up against the greats like Max Roach and Tony Williams.

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**Robertkoa** · 04-13-2018, 12:07 PM

I have noticed in lots of amateur , semi pro , and pro
recording that locking Guitar Parts onto different parts of a Track would give different 'feels' to the overdub/ guitar part .

Kick drum on the " one " Kick drum on the ' 3', snares
Hi Hats etc.

IF the Drummer is really a good timekeeper - it should still be possible .. but if he is doing polyrhythmic patterns and very little kick drum on the
"1 " etc. -

You should try lock to the Bass Parts.

I am bad a counting complex rhythms but usually very good at ' syncing ' - but I do NOT mean to suggest that being semi literate Musically improves my 'Time '.

A lot of Jazz Drummers to me sound more like percussion ' colorists ' rather than Groovemeisters but that's because they don't come down hard on the 1.

**christianm77** · 04-13-2018, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

Anybody got on opinion on Art Blakey not as a leader but as a drummer. I wonder how he stacks up against the greats like Max Roach and Tony Williams.

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I frigging love Blakey but I’m told he’s an untidy drummer technically.... time wise you can hear him drop beats in solos and fills and so on. Certainly not a metronome guy!

But man, his hi hat and ride on Soul Station. One of the greats for sure.

**FZ2017** · 04-13-2018, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I frigging love Blake but I’m told he’s an untidy drummer technically.... time wise you can hear him drop beats in solos and fills and so on. Certainly not a metronome guy!

But man, his hi hat and ride on Soul Station. One of the greats for sure.

Yeah and I've been really digging Lee Morgan lately! I think my top 5 horn/trumpet players now are Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, Fats Navarro, Woody Shaw, and Dizzy Gillispie! Miles falls under favorite band leader and personality! Along with Mingus and lastly sorta outside the genre Zappa!

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**FZ2017** · 04-13-2018, 01:48 PM

Seems to me that Ginger Baker copped a lot of his style from Art Blakey. Especially the whole mallet thing.

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**FZ2017** · 04-13-2018, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

I have noticed in lots of amateur , semi pro , and pro
recording that locking Guitar Parts onto different parts of a Track would give different 'feels' to the overdub/ guitar part .

Kick drum on the " one " Kick drum on the ' 3', snares
Hi Hats etc.

IF the Drummer is really a good timekeeper - it should still be possible .. but if he is doing polyrhythmic patterns and very little kick drum on the
"1 " etc. -

You should try lock to the Bass Parts.

I am bad a counting complex rhythms but usually very good at ' syncing ' - but I do NOT mean to suggest that being semi literate Musically improves my 'Time '.

A lot of Jazz Drummers to me sound more like percussion ' colorists ' rather than Groovemeisters but that's because they don't come down hard on the 1.

Give an example of a groovemeister then to compare.

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**Boston Joe** · 04-13-2018, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I frigging love Blake but I’m told he’s an untidy drummer technically.... time wise you can hear him drop beats in solos and fills and so on. Certainly not a metronome guy!

But man, his hi hat and ride on Soul Station. One of the greats for sure.

Yeah, not the tightest, but if his press roll doesn't make the hair on your neck stand up, see a doctor.

**Boston Joe** · 04-13-2018, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by FZ2017

Give an example of a groovemeister then to compare.

Check out Billy Cobham's playing on Jazz Is Dead's CD "Blue Light Rain." On the whole, he's playing very, very simple beats, but they're perfectly in the pocket. No trouble at all finding the 1.

This song ("Crazy Fingers") is a great example. The bassist is Alfonso Johnson, and he and Billy are so solid you could build a skyscraper on top of them. I think the part from about 6:00 to about 7:15, then to the end is especially interesting. Billy doesn't play the 1 on the quiet part, but there's no ambiguity about where it is.