-
A very very broad question I know but I just feel like my playing isn't swinging yet. Right now I'm not too sure where to start with it, perhaps some Freddie Green transcriptions? I'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction
-
03-12-2017 06:19 AM
-
Swing is a dialect of speaking, it's a feel that comes from a coordination of body feel, awareness of space and immersion. Very like a language. I don't think you're going to get it by tackling it head on, from a book or any particular one recording, no matter how hard you take it apart piece by piece.
Listen. Listen. Listen, to a lot of recordings. Immerse yourself in the musical feel of each era. Recognize that each era of jazz had its own dialect, and learn to feel, move, speak and play within that dialect.
If you want to swing like Freddie Green, recognize that you are choosing a certain era, along with that era's use of space, content, feel and content. Then listen to recordings of the era. Do you know Lester Young, how his feel is different from Coleman Hawkins, from Don Byas, from Frankie Trumbauer?
Take your time. There's no quick magic pill for developing a dialect, except being around it. A lot. See as much live music and broaden your listening skills, and seek out live music that "speaks" the way you want to speak.
Listen a lot. Play a lot.
That's my thought anyway.
David
-
Try to first find some recordings that you think really do swing and listen to them. If you want to "swing" you probably first need to train your ear to the point where you can hear what that is.
Originally Posted by ArthurX
In my opinion "ear training" is the most overlooked part of learning rhythm and interpretation.
Freddie Green transcriptions don't swing, even if Freddie Green does...
Jens
-
Excellent advice. Excellent. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Last edited by mrcee; 03-12-2017 at 08:12 AM. Reason: spelling
-
This may help. The examples she recommends one listen to over and over (Basie's "April in Paris", "C Jam Blues" by Oscar Peterson, and Nina Simone's "My Baby Just Cares For Me") all swing like mad. Lots of love for Freddie Green here.
-
Cop some Charlie Christian licks!
-
The earlier advice to go steep yourself in this stuff by listening, is right on.
Go listen to "King Porter Stomp", almost an anthem of the Swing Era. Versions of it were recorded by Fletcher Henderson, Benny Goodman, Chick Webb, and later Harry James. (The Harry James version (1970) is very good, and HJ's later bands were probably more jazz-adventurous than his earlier stuff.) All of these swing, but differently. Webb and Henderson's have a little looser feel, as does James' version. Compare to the Dorsey Band version (1946) which is stiffer sounding. (The Henderson and Goodman band might even be using similar arrangments. Henderson's band was really good, but couldn't make a go of it in the early 30's. He sold a suitcase of arrangements to Goodman for $500, and became the chief arranger for Goodman.) (Also listen to the original version by Jelly Roll Morton who wrote it in the 20's, and recorded it with his group.)
Listen to solo playing by Benny Goodman v. Artie Shaw. To my mind, Shaw is more fluid, and looser in feel.
The early Basie band is a different band than the later band of the 50's. The early band is looser and more of a soloists' band, whereas the later band's arrangments by Neal Hefti, Frank Foster, etc. has a different sound...both swing, but the feel is different.
Coltrane, to my ear, swings less than Sonny Rollins or Dexter Gordon. Sonny Rollins can take the simplest things, and play around rhythmically, and make them interesting.
Also, listen to some ragtime and stride piano, and some 20's jazz (Louis Armstrong and the Hot Five, or Hot Seven, esp. the stuff with Earl Hines on it.) Also, Fats Waller was a great, great pianist, and an absurdly prolific songwriter...very, very talented.Last edited by goldenwave77; 03-12-2017 at 10:37 AM.
-
Following Jeff's recommendation with a twist...
Just learn a few of Goodman's melodies for his Sextet. Don't worry about the solos, just play the melodies with the recording. The melodies are often simple and repetitive. Doing this allows you to just focus on listening to the band and the rhythm section and immerse yourself in the "swing". In truth a lot of these melodies make great licks on their own.
List of Simple Repetitive Goodman Sextet Heads To Practice swinging:
Flying Home
Soft Winds (Great blues head)
Seven Come 11
Til Tom Special
AC/DC Current
A Smooth One
Bonus (Challenging but FunFUnFUn)
Slipped Disc
-
Listening/hearing/feeling/being... I wouldn't go 'direct to jazz'. First I'd locate and harness Groove, and then ride it - not tamed but contained, like canned heat - wherever I please.
Perhaps not everyone's cup of tea, but here's my contrived route to Ranglin (whose playing - in the last clip - speaks for itself):
-
Listening closely to good swing is something I agree with. But you have to listen actively, don't just have a recording play while doing something else.
In a lesson of Emily Remler she emphasizes rhythm and swing. One of her main points is to practice with a metronome on 2 & 4. The idea is to hear and feel what the high hat or snare is playing.
You have to set the metronome at half the speed and count the clicks as 2,4. Next, you have to start counting on 1, which the metronome isn't playing. The DVD is called Bebop and Swing. It's no longer on youtube.
Amazon.com: Emily Remler: Bebop and Swing Guitar: Hot Licks, Arlen Roth: Movies & TV
-
Swinging by singing.
Sing solos that swing. Sing along. Sing em solo.
Get percussive.
This is what I've been singing (quietly in my mouth) while at work today.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Better figure out what type of swing you want to swing. Can't pull the king Oliver shit out on a bop gig.
-
Immersion and imitation. When you're away from your instrument, listen to who you want to sound like. When you're with your instrument, try to sound like them. Record yourself and see how you do.
Herbie Hancock was classically-trained, but wanted to learn to play jazz. A friend, who could already play and improvise, told him to get some George Shearing records and try to copy the parts he liked. Hancock took his advice, but said, "My first attempts were terrible. I sounded exactly like what I was -- a classical player learning how to improvise." However, he worked at it until he could play the phrases the way they sounded on the record. In his book Possibilities, he said that's still the advice he would give anyone who wanted to learn this music: "find a player you like, then copy what he or she is doing."
-
Great post! Like Wes with Charlie and Charlie with Lester.
For me it's all about Bernstein.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
What a great question.
Short answer - I'll back to when you I've found out!
Long answer - I've been having a bit of a discussion with JakAcci on another forum regarding time/feel training and so on. His feelings - I hope I don't put words in his mouth - are that swing is too intangible to be taught.
For me, swing is a physical/emotional response to a certain aspect of music which can to some extent be quantified - the accurate but relaxed execution of idiomatic polyrhythms and the creation of the corresponding state of mind for performer and listener. There is both a mathematical and ritual magic aspect of this.
So: certain things have to be mastered rhythmically, and internalised to a deep level. These things are present in many of what scholars call 'African Diaspora Musics' though of course not all of these forms of music Swing the way American jazz does, but there is always a concept of 'groove.'
So what can you do in a hands-on way to enhance your swing feeling? Well listen to music that swings and play with other players that swing.
What can you do in your practice room?
1) Play along with records that swing
2) Learn language - lines with rhythm as well as pitch.
3) Spend time tapping out (or even better drumming) 6/8, 12/8 and 3/4 against 4/4, the rhythms of bebop lines and so on.
4) Practice your upbeats and listen critically to where you and your favourite players are placing them
5) Audiate rhythm very clearly before you play it. In jazz the audition of pitch isn't always as important as the audition of rhythm. I'm not sure Parker would have heard every note in one of his uptempo solos, but he would have felt every rhythm.
6) Be exact. Lester Young might give the impression of floating rhythmically, but his timing is exact. There should be no sloppiness or rhythmic weakness in our music.Last edited by christianm77; 03-13-2017 at 04:16 PM.
-
Be part of the great chain Originally Posted by Richard Luther
You with Bernstein
Bernstein with Grant Green
Green with Charlie Christian
Christian with Lester
BTW listening to Green and Jim Hall today made me laugh. Note choices are so pedestrian... Chord tones, harmonic minor on the minor ii-V-I's, blues scales, chromatic passing tones. It's the swing!
And yet we think the way to sound hip is 'more harmony.' Bullshit.
To the OP - great question. Make this your obsession. Don't be distracted by less important things such as harmony.
-
Originally Posted by Richard Luther
-
Unless you were Roland Kirk. Encyclopedic and he knew the connections. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Ha ha
David
-
I used to have all kinds of trouble with this when I was younger. I pretty much fixed it, and have a good time feel and rhythmic drive now. This is going to sound stupid, but for me, the key was listening to myself, pinpointing when I *was* swinging, and do more of that. Also playing Charlie Christian solos on the guitar, and learning to sing them also.
To me, there's a bunch of different aspects of swinging:
- Phrasing: starting and ending your phrases on the downbeats of strong beats isn't always the most swinging choice. Learning solos by Charlie Christian or Lester Young or Charlie Parker is a great way to break out of this.
- Placement: How far behind or ahead of the beat you are placing your notes. Think about someone like Dexter Gordon's time feel, which is waaaaay behind the beat, but his eighth notes are pretty even. Contrast this with horace silver, who can play a very triplet based eight which almost sounds corny sometimes but also can be incredibly hip.
- Articulation: which notes in the phrase you are accenting is also pretty important. Parker is a great model here, but any bebop player is going to accent certain notes in the phrase, giving their lines an arc.
I guess there is more to it, but I think getting these three things happening is pretty important.
-
Going back to Aimee Nolte's video (above), here are the three tunes she recommends one listen to over and over to develop a sense of swing. Granted, there are degrees of swing---some want it heavy, others light. But these are all first rate. And you can hear Freddie's comping nicely in "April in Paris."
(There are many versions of this one, by Nina Simone. I"m not sure which recording Aimee had in mind. I can't locate my favorite one, which is live.)
-
As a Rock / R&B / Sometimes Acoustic Player I had good 'Time' but I never played Jazz except on a Tune long ago where the Originally Posted by ArthurX
Writer /Keyboard Player taught me the lines AND the Rhythm - only I didn't know it was called 'swing'.
So for more Harmonic Knowledge and filling in Gaps in my Theory I came onto this Forum and started listening to Jazz Guitarists a little more carefully.
When I started 'swinging' I could hear it and feel it but it surprised me that despite advanced picking skills I would ' fall off Rhythm after a few bars. My fingers would not walk the tightrope for long periods.
So this might not work for everyone but here's what I did.
I practiced swinging 8th notes all over the Fingerboard WITHOUT worrying about the notes only the Rhythm- swinging is a Rhythm - so a lot of chromatic connection etc. and I plugged in some good phrases here and there but played ANYTHING.
And I used a Metronome on my Android.
And it was an endurance thing too but I just kept at it and finally did.
Let me re-iterate in a different way.
When you learn Travis Picking - like ' 'Helplessy Hoping ' by Crosby Stills and Nash or like ' The Boxer ' by Paul Simon you do NOT hop around from chord to chord while you are getting the picking hand part- it's ONE CHORD while you work on it. You remove the variables.
So that's what I did .
I always had tight time on chords and fingerstyle parts but my Solos sharpened and gradually all my chops came through.
I was aiming for Benson I ended up probably with more like Norman Brown...
still a good result .
Very very few people swing like Benson.
He is more forward in the beat and his notes are often very evenly spaced and articulated sharply.
Listen to Benson...then Pat Martino..his swing is more relaxed a little further back in the beat...then there are Players who are almost lagging...even famous ones.
Am I very proud that even though I am a R&B Fusion Player I can swing harder than many Jazz Players ? Absolutely.
Can I play over Changes as well as them ?
Absolutely not .
So that's a crash course -you need good picking skills but to try to learn to swing or
get used to swinging WHILE you are trying to select cool note choices is like:
Learning to shoot a Bow and Arrow at Targets from a moving train.
You must consistently hit the Target first.
So ' swing' on ANY note patterns NO CHORDS just a Metronome or simple drum beat ...chromatic patterns ...anything .
People hear and feel swing differently.
Some people just don't feel it or hear it the same.. if you can feel it ...you can do it.
At about 58 seconds into this Video-
Mike Moreno is talking about
Articulation but also secondarily SWING-
He says 'take pitch out of it like a drummer'
which is what I instinctively did- just swing and don't worry about pitch - use a Metronome or Beat - Swing is a Rhythm like a Drummer in Basic Form.Last edited by Robertkoa; 04-30-2017 at 06:18 PM.
-
IMO it's all about the upbeats. You can be behind as anything on the beat, but your upbeats have to pop.
-
I agree, but I've definitely overdone this myself (over-accented offbeat eights). I think the secret is trying to get as smooth/even a line as possible while sonically accounting for the bass/drums in the overall mix.
-
Play along with tune you like, can't count it out, also country music dudes really exagerate swing but its a different swing feel , try play along with country song.
-
Work on your breathing.
Reply With Quote
Alternative to Reverb?
Today, 06:25 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos