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I would not want to discourage any one either, my approach has been to keep to the schedule of required bars, not rushing ahead trying to get it all the way through.
One exercise I have been doing is to play along with Mr Conti where he plays the whole thing at the beginning, and remembering where I make mistakes, then go over that part until its locked in.
I hope this is helpful.
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03-15-2017 04:25 PM
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Constructive criticism is always good and welcomed. This could be a latency issue. I'm kind of new to video recording. I just bought a new webcam and ran the audio through my desktop. Could be a sync problem too. I'll work on it. Thanks
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Me too, Mike! It's possible to learn the solos without a group, but I find that being part of a group makes me focus. I tend to work on too many different things at once, with only----pardon my French---half-assed results. With the groups I'm in now, I work on those projects every day. Every day. Over time, the videos should bear witness to improvement in feel, timing, comfort with recording---all good things. Originally Posted by MikeS
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That's a time-honored practice technique. I've only done it a couple of times with Conti, but I'm going to take your tip and start making it part of my routine, starting today. Thanks! Originally Posted by andyb
Recently, I posted this in another thread, but it fits with what you were saying, and is an example of a renowned musician doing the exact same thing:
Herbie Hancock was classically-trained, but wanted to learn to play jazz. A friend, who could already play and improvise, told him to get some George Shearing records and try to copy the parts he liked. Hancock took his advice, but said, "My first attempts were terrible. I sounded exactly like what I was -- a classical player learning how to improvise." However, he worked at it until he could play the phrases the way they sounded on the record. In his book Possibilities, he said that's still the advice he would give anyone who wanted to learn this music: "find a player you like, then copy what he or she is doing."
There's also the story of Chick Corea playing along with the recordings of one or another of the players he admired as he was coming up, attempting to duplicate the recording precisely, until he could nail every note and nuance. Someone asked him how many times he would play along with a given record, and Chick said, "Until you didn't know there were two (pianos)."Last edited by snailspace; 03-15-2017 at 07:05 PM.
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Doesn't George Benson use a Fender Medium, or something similar? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
In the world of acoustic flatpicking/bluegrass guitar (another style I enjoy) -- where most pickers have plectra preferences north of 1.0 mm, Steve Kaufman uses a Dunlop 0.73 to great effect, being the first 3-time winner at the prestigious Winfield contest, and also being the first to take 2nd place three times, as well.
Steve has put out a ton of books and DVDs to teach people to play in this style. I've got a bunch of them, and his method is the same as Conti's (because it's the way he learned, too) -- learn tunes and solos, then re-employ the licks and make them your own.
The Dunlop picks are sometimes called "Steve's Yellers," and -- after trying to tackle fiddle tunes with "diving boards" of formidable gauge -- I've come back to these when I take out my flat-top.
Still, like so many things, it's easy to get caught up in what other people do. It took me quite awhile to figure out what I like, and to remember that the one you use is more important than the one you choose.
The play's the thing, to coin a phrase.
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I've made a point of doing a video every day of whatever level of practice I've reached with the two projects I'm doing (Jimmy Raney group and this one). Today I spent some time with the metronome, and then moved to the backing track. I thought I'd post that just for fun. The guitar is the Epiphone ES175 I got on that crazy GC sale, Polytone amp, and a microphone.
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Yes. Many (if not most) "Benson pickers" use a Medium pick. It allows for some flex, which is held by many to be essential to the style. Originally Posted by snailspace
Massive thread on the subject here
Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo
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Every time I hear someone in the group play this, it sounds more natural to them, more comfortable -- like we're getting more at home with the lines. Great job, Lawson! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Years ago, I had an Epi 175, and liked it quite a bit. Every time I got it out of the case I thought about Herb Ellis, and how we had something at least slightly in common. I finally traded it away for a mandolin, because my kids were at the age where they treated everything like a drum, and I could never leave the guitar unattended for long without someone wanting to bust a funky beat.
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I remember that thread -- I used to check in on it from time to time. Not too often, though, because I knew I would get drawn into changing my picking style (again). Nothing wrong with that, but my follow-through isn't so hot, and I knew it would come to the same inglorious end as my forays into hybrid picking, economy picking, and using the thumb a la Wes: a burst of enthusiasm, a month or so of dedicated practice with something I was sure would revolutionize my playing, and then a return to the way I learned how to do it when I was 19. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Between all the time I've spent experimenting with different picks and picking techniques, it's a wonder I learned how to play anything at all.
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. . . if you haven't posted any of the previous sections yet, go ahead and put those up, when you can. Our schedule is just a guideline for keeping us all moving forward, but as long as you are moving forward -- no matter where you are in the process -- wherever you are is good.
Even if you think your video is full of clams -- or if you can only play it at 40 bpm -- we'd still love to see it and congratulate you for your progress. Remember: success is in the effort, and besides . . . we've all made our share of chowder on this thing.
Last edited by snailspace; 03-16-2017 at 01:27 AM.
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More random thoughts while shaving...
- I'm loving the study group. I've been a member of the jazzguitar.be site for 10 years and this is my first study group and the first time I have posted a video. I don't even play in front of the wife and kids, so this is a big step forward for me. Thanks for the encouragement!
- I find it challenging to get through even 16 bars on video without a flub. The pressure builds with each passing measure when the camera is rolling.
- Picks: I was wondering if any of you were using Conti's white Dunlop .38mm pick. I find them just a tad too thin. I currently have 3 picks in my rotation: Dunlop tortex .50mm, Dunlop Prime Tone Sculpted .73mm, and a D'Andrea Pro Plec 1.5mm. For years and years all I ever used was a Fender Medium.
- I should have video for Bars 1-24 posted over the weekend.
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I'm with you all the way,
the study group is going well, I think.
Its amazing how turning on the microphone makes my finger go to jelly.
I can't help with pick choice, I don't use one. It's fingers for me.
Bars 1-24 this weekend
Good luck all.
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It is pretty fun, isn't it? It's the people who make a group what it is, and we sure do have some good ones. This is my first group, too; but I've browsed around most of the ones that are/were here, and they all seem to have or have had this kind of support and encouragement in common. Realizations like this make me thankful to Dirk and the moderators for doing what it takes to establish and maintain such a cool space (of course, the members have a lot to do with it too). Originally Posted by losaltosjoe
Funny you should mention those particular picks -- I've used them all, and have found much to like about each of them. Right now, I'm using the Dunlop 0.46, but am considering the 0.50 (the Fender Thin seems to be somewhere in that gauge, too). I like the feel of the 0.46 on the strings, but not in my hand. The reverse is true of the 0.50 -- just a little too stiff . . . but I like the tone better.
The Primetone is one I've used mainly with my acoustic playing -- but the 1.0 instead of the 0.73. I liked it pretty well (Doc Watson used a Dunlop 1.0 . . . Tortex, I believe), but I had a hard time being accurate when I tried to crosspick, and I didn't like the way I played rhythm with it. I recently went back to what has been flatpicking champ Steve Kaufman's go-to pick for decades . . . the yellow Dunlop 0.73s. Just right.
I used the 1.5 ProPlec for years, because I thought I had to use a heavy pick for jazz, and they were recommended by someone whose playing I admire. However, I'm a bit heavy-handed with my right hand -- maybe from a long-held habit of playing my electric guitar unplugged, or from playing acoustic (where you have to generate your own volume). With the heavier strings and the heavier pick, it was hard to develop a light touch, and I began to notice that I was experiencing quite a bit of fatigue (and a little bit of pain) in my right hand.
Using a combination of lighter strings (D'Addario Chromes, the set with 0.11 on the top -- a set not too different from the Conti Preferred Gauge Strings) and the 0.46 picks, I found I could get a volume and tone I liked by twiddling the knobs on both guitar and amp, and by picking closer to the neck pickup than I had been. I'm still fiddling with it, but most of my tone issues are the result of using cheap gear (Epiphone Dot and Fender Mustang I -- my dark secret is out!), not the pick I choose.
My pick collection is something I still look at every time I sit down to play, but I'm trying to just stick with one. I remember Jimmy Bruno talking once about how players can get stuck in what he called a "pick loop," where they just keep experimenting with picks, instead of using their time to play. That was me. I've wasted many a practice session over the years by playing the same lick, over and over, with a different pick each time -- just to find the "right" one. I got really good at that one lick, though . . . but I don't remember what it was, or which pick I settled on that day.
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The best take seems to always be the one before the red light goes on. Originally Posted by andyb
I think you're doing great, by the way -- I always look forward to your videos!
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I would suggest making a video clip as a part of your daily practice routine. Have a cheap tripod and a quick mount for your smart-phone and as the final part of a practice time, just hit "record" and go over the solo a couple times, either with a metronome, a backing track, or just playing it bare-bones, internal backing-track. Then listen to it a few times, identify where you are nailing it, where it's hurting, and then look at yesterday's clip for comparison. Then delete yesterday. Tomorrow, rinse-repeat. Originally Posted by losaltosjoe
This will easily kill the nervousness about recording. It becomes part of the drill. My phone has an okay microphone, and I have one that plugs directly into the phone that I can park in front of the amp. Other times I use a more elaborate setup, but the goal is to get a pretty decent capture of your progress. I actually saved my first month of Jimmy Raney group clips and when I saw the progress I'd made--which I had not really noticed day to day--it took my breath away!
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Recording makes me nervous too. If you have an editing tool, you could just do something over and over until you get a take you like. My least favorite part of recording is the beginning----getting myself ready, then turning on the camera and the backing track and getting my hands back on the guitar. It's disorienting. Back in the old days when I used a drum machine, it had a footswitch. Two, actually. One would give you a roll and the other would stop and start the machine. It would be nice to have something like that to start a camera and backing tracks..... Originally Posted by losaltosjoe
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When recording, we all want to post our best effort, but don't make yourself crazy . . . you're among friends.
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So here's my run at the whole solo, done at about 100 bpm. I love my Epiphone Elitist Broadway, but likely will be selling it when the L5ces I'm gunning for arrives!
I have tried to play it as close to "as written" as I could, and there is a clam right a the end! There always is, right? I hope to get the tempo up to about 120 and do a clip with the head+solo to cap the first Conti project.
Played into a DV Mark Micro 50 Head, 10" speaker cab, mic'd through a ProSonus Audiobox iTwo and into my iPhone via USB. My levels are a little hot and there is some clipping.
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I think it would be fun to post a bunch of "out-takes"- I know I've had some spectacular crash-and-burn moments in learning this. Originally Posted by snailspace
When recording, we all want to post our best effort, but don't make yourself crazy . . . you're among friends.
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Robert Conti has offered to answer some of our questions. Probably in a video.
I should think we need three or four.
Perhaps some have been suggested already. (Certainly the question about simplifying his "Formula" progressions has generated a lot of attention but that is a separate matter. See link below to that thread.) But how will anyone keep track of them?
Simplifying Conti "Formula" Progressions
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One possibility: Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I'm available if anyone wants to PM the questions to me. We could set a deadline for submission, then create a poll so the group can vote on the questions we have in order to narrow the list before we send it off.
Is this something we want to try to do after each project? Each couple of projects? The whole DVD? All of the above?
Let me know what you think . . .
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One of my favorite moments in the video, and I forget where it is, comes when Conti elaborates on one of his lines, ripping out a really fast, knotty phrase. He says something like "Some people don't like my playing, but I like to play a lot of notes."
For some reason, that just endeared him to me even more. Knows some folks don't like "notey" playing, but happy to say he likes it just does what he does.
One of my professors once spent 45 minutes in class walking us through an extensive piece of research that in the end, returned very little to our work. Dry hole. He then just said, "So why do this kind of thing? Well... why does the otter go down the bank? It's because he's an otter."
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Here is my contribution to Bars 1 through 16.
Thanks to all for your patience with me.
I do not follow his fingerings for bars 1, 2, 3 and 11 because to me it makes more more sense to follow the chord structure that I am used to.
Satin Doll 1 - 16
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Good stuff -- glad your DVD arrived and you were able to get caught up. Love your tone! Originally Posted by Doublea A
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I like that part, too. He could have spouted some mumbo-jumbo about "harmonic complexity," "intervallic and rhythmic interplay," or something else that an academician might say. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Instead, he kept it real: "I like to play a lot of notes." Straight to the point.
Lawson, your otter story reminded me of a geography professor whose class I took. He had a deep voice, a slow drawl, and everything he said reminded him of a story about something else. One day, he interrupted himself to explain the method to his madness.
"I like to teach using stories and parables; so if you like stories and parables, you'll probably like my class," he said. "Which reminds me of a story about my second ex-wife . . ."
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