The Barry Harris Half-Step Practice Model

[karsten_selleri]

Hello everyone

I recently bought the Barry Harry DVD's (perhaps it is a precondition for this thread that you actually have the possibility to access the book. Sorry)
I am very pleased with my purchase albeit the material is somewhat difficult to understand at times.


I have started to explore The Half-Step Practice Model but i have quickly run into trouble:


On the picture (below) you can see a phrase that I have created. I have tried to play the related dominant 7th scales into eachother as stated on page 20 in Book 1:


I start at the 7th of C7 on the Em7b5 chord, continue to the 3rd which becomes the 5th of A. I follow the rule on page 8 when my starting note is the fifth (3-2;2-8;8-7) but i stop at the 2nd of A because it becomes the 6th of D minor. From then, I follow the Major Scale Rules (it is stated they equal the Minor Scale Rules except for the b3 which makes sense) as stated on p. 14 applying the second rule for 2-4-6 which is half-steps between the 2-1; 6-5.


But somehow the phrase ends up being rhythmically incorrect (it ends on 4 &, even though I follow The Rules). What am I doing wrong?



Cheers

[David B]

Hi Karsten. A quick thought for now. You've over-complicated your approach to the ii-V. BH doesn't advocate one scale for the ii, then one for the V. "ii is V"

As that ii-V is going to a minor chord, it's much easier to just play what BH calls "the minor's dominant" over that bar.
In the progression above, you would play C7 down to the third of A.

[David B]

Gave the second bar some thought this morning. Here's what I came up with (haven't got my BH books with me):



Bar 1: C7 down to the third of A. A passing note (C) is added to the "and" of beat 4 to lead into the second bar.

Bar 2: G7 down. A passing note (Gb) is added. From the perspective of D minor, that gives you B (the 6th), G (the 11th), F (the minor 3rd) and D (the root) on the downbeats.

[Vladan]

Hello everyone

I recently bought the Barry Harry DVD's (perhaps it is a precondition for this thread that you actually have the possibility to access the book. Sorry)
I am very pleased with my purchase albeit the material is somewhat difficult to understand at times.
I have started to explore The Half-Step Practice Model but i have quickly run into trouble:
On the picture (below) you can see a phrase that I have created. I have tried to play the related dominant 7th scales into eachother as stated on page 20 in Book 1:
I start at the 7th of C7 on the Em7b5 chord, continue to the 3rd which becomes the 5th of A. I follow the rule on page 8 when my starting note is the fifth (3-2;2-8;8-7) but i stop at the 2nd of A because it becomes the 6th of D minor. From then, I follow the Major Scale Rules (it is stated they equal the Minor Scale Rules except for the b3 which makes sense) as stated on p. 14 applying the second rule for 2-4-6 which is half-steps between the 2-1; 6-5.
But somehow the phrase ends up being rhythmically incorrect (it ends on 4 &, even though I follow The Rules). What am I doing wrong?

Cheers

I think, I don't know Harris method, or rules, but adding notes usually apply to full 4/4 bars only, 8 notes against 8 x 1/8s.

I guess if you'd double all the durations, from | Em A7| Dm| to | Em| A7| Dm Dm|, then apply the rules, everything would work just fine.

[karsten_selleri]

Gave the second bar some thought this morning. Here's what I came up with (haven't got my BH books with me):



Bar 1: C7 down to the third of A. A passing note (C) is added to the "and" of beat 4 to lead into the second bar.

Bar 2: G7 down. A passing note (Gb) is added. From the perspective of D minor, that gives you B (the 6th), G (the 11th), F (the minor 3rd) and D (the root) on the downbeats.

Thanks for your reply David!

One scale for each chord

I know, it is too rigorous to literally treat The Rules as they are written. However, I want to know when they apply and when they do not. I have a hard time figuring out when they do apply and when they do not. Of course, you can always adapt a line "manually", as you have done here (which sounds great by the way :-) ), but if that is the case - what is the point of "Rules" who only apply say 50% of the time?

About the one scale for each chord, I am a little bit confused. Look at this example: From tonic to b7 of C7 with 1 added half-step (according to The Rule when descending from the tonic). The b7 becomes the 3rd of Gb7 (a related dominant 7th scale), and the line continues down the Gb7 scale to the 4th, again adding a half-step between the tonic and b7 of Gb7, resolving to the 5th of F major.



So this phrase corresponds with The Rules, it is rhythmically correct and sounds great.

So what is the deal with these rules? I really want a system that works on the fly because I do not have the time to think each phrase through i real time (who has that?)

Cheers

[karsten_selleri]

I think, I don't know Harris method, or rules, but adding notes usually apply to full 4/4 bars only, 8 notes against 8 x 1/8s.

I guess if you'd double all the durations, from | Em A7| Dm| to | Em| A7| Dm Dm|, then apply the rules, everything would work just fine.

Thanks for your reply Vladan :-)

It definitely works if one doubles the durations. However, it alters your phrases in the process.

The only requirement of the scales to correspond with The Rules in the book is: "These rules are applied to scales descending from at least the octave (i.e., starting on the 2nd is actually starting on the 9th)"

So one should be able to apply The Rules also in a situation where there are two chords in the same bar?

Cheers :-)

[matt.guitarteacher]

The only requirement of the scales to correspond with The Rules in the book is: "These rules are applied to scales descending from at least the octave (i.e., starting on the 2nd is actually starting on the 9th)"

So one should be able to apply The Rules also in a situation where there are two chords in the same bar?

According to your quote above, not if you're playing eighth notes, one scale per chord. Again, I don't think Harris addresses ii-V's that way anyway.

But it's all about landing on the right chord tone on the right beat. Basically, if it's a note that would require a halfstep added beginning above the octave, you don't NEED the halfstep if it's less than octave anyway. Right?

If you're going to work on stuff like this, which is NEW to you, I think you'd be best served to really internalize the examples Harris gives FIRST, before trying to apply them to other contexts on your own. Can't run before you walk.

Where is Christian anyway? :-)

[karsten_selleri]

According to your quote above, not if you're playing eighth notes, one scale per chord. Again, I don't think Harris addresses ii-V's that way anyway.

But it's all about landing on the right chord tone on the right beat. Basically, if it's a note that would require a halfstep added beginning above the octave, you don't NEED the halfstep if it's less than octave anyway. Right?

If you're going to work on stuff like this, which is NEW to you, I think you'd be best served to really internalize the examples Harris gives FIRST, before trying to apply them to other contexts on your own. Can't run before you walk.

Where is Christian anyway? :-)

I hear what you say :-)

However, it confuses me that, at times, you actually can breach the quoted rule (look at my post from 10.41 PM with the BH example)

I think you are right about the internalization although I would like to approve anything I learn with my intellect before I internalize it.

Perhaps that is a side-effect of having to learn jazz through intellectual studying (reading and so forth) and not by playing my way to it. (This could sound as a conflicting statement, I acknowledge that. What I mean is the fact that I do not have anyone to teach me on the bandstand as in the good old days, I have to read, search and designate the stuff I think would be a good idea to learn before I choose to devote my time to it.)

[Vladan]

In that example that works, you have 2 pick up 1/8s, starting from C. Again, I have no idea about Harrises rules, but seems you might be applying the wrong one?!


Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

[matt.guitarteacher]

I hear what you say :-)

However, it confuses me that, at times, you actually can breach the quoted rule (look at my post from 10.41 PM with the BH example)

I think you are right about the internalization although I would like to approve anything I learn with my intellect before I internalize it.

Perhaps that is a side-effect of having to learn jazz through intellectual studying (reading and so forth) and not by playing my way to it. (This could sound as a conflicting statement, I acknowledge that. What I mean is the fact that I do not have anyone to teach me on the bandstand as in the good old days, I have to read, search and designate the stuff I think would be a good idea to learn before I choose to devote my time to it.)

Well, regarding internalization, I was simply talking about internalizing the Harris examples of similar patterns. Have you done much with minor cadences like this in the Harris material?

Again, I'm pretty vaguely familiar with it. Christian and David B are the guys on this.

[David B]

So one should be able to apply The Rules also in a situation where there are two chords in the same bar?

Hi Karsten,

Again, I fear you may be over-complicating things.

Where a chart shows:
Gm7 C7

BH might advocate playing over both chords:
C7 (the V)
C7 into Gb7 (the V into its tritone)
Gb7 (the V's tritone alone)

You can play fewer scales than there are chords in a progression. To me, that's one of the attractive features of the BH approach: you don't have to think of a scale to address every single chord. I recall that BH demonstrates this at the start of the second DVD disc, with a line from a Charlie Parker solo over a ii-V where Parker is just playing the V over both chords. Whether it's a short ii-V (2 beats each) or a long ii-V (one bar each), I take the same approach.

Have you seen this video?

[David B]

If you're new to the BH approach (you mention in your original post that you have just purchased the DVD/workbook set), you might like to invest in the two video classes that Roni Ben-Hur (a wonderful guitarist and former student of BH)
did for MikesMasterclasses, in which he shows you how to analyse the progression of a tune a la Barry Harris and decide what scales to play. Roni takes things at a nice pace.

Anatomy of a Tune - Be-bop Style | Lesson by Roni Ben-Hur | Mike's Master Classes

[christianm77]

I agree with DaveB

I was actually racking my brains, in fact... duh

[christianm77]

Also I did a record this week

[matt.guitarteacher]

Also I did a record this week

Don't leave it there. :-) What are you doing, Christian?

[karsten_selleri]

Dear David

I totally agree on the C7 and the Gb7 (There is no ll according to BH :-))

I think my problem can be summed up to playing those two scales into eachother. I watched the link and BH sounds great but my issues weren't solved.

Can you elaborate on how to play C7 into the Gb7? :-)

[christianm77]

Don't leave it there. :-) What are you doing, Christian?

This was a recording of my string trio Balagan Cafe Band that I have posted some videos of on the forum over the past year or so.

It's real mix - running the gamut from bop and gypsy swing through to North African music, Balkan groove, Folk rock jazz fusion, Renaissance and Medieval music, ECM style contemporary jazz and some genres we may have invented for the record. We've got some super talented special guests lending their assistance, too.

I have no idea who I am going to sell this to, but watch this space for more info.

In other news another band I play in, the eclectic gypsy jazz group 'the Hot Club Jupiter' will be launching our album on the 5th February, so I should probably go away and learn how to play those songs again.

[christianm77]

It also features DavidB's EHX Superego pedal. ;-)

[christianm77]

Dear David

I totally agree on the C7 and the Gb7 (There is no ll according to BH :-))

I think my problem can be summed up to playing those two scales into eachother. I watched the link and BH sounds great but my issues weren't solved.

Can you elaborate on how to play C7 into the Gb7? :-)

Don't forget Eb7 as well. Yard plays that even more than Gb7... Backdoor minor's dominant thing...

Y'know ... Eb7 on Gm7b5, then play to the E on C7... So in effect you play minor into major...

[Robocat]

But somehow the phrase ends up being rhythmically incorrect (it ends on 4 &, even though I follow The Rules). What am I doing wrong?



Cheers

The problem with your line is that you start a half-step rule for 2-1 on an off-beat (the e is on 3 & ) . The half-step rules are there to keep your line in-sync with the beat, you are getting it 'out-of-sync' this way!

Just look at fig. 1-13 for many examples. All half-step rules start on the beat.

A correct line (second bar) is B-Bb-A-G-F-E-D or B-Bb-A-G-F-E-D-C-B

Cheers

[Cunamara]

So what is the deal with these rules? I really want a system that works on the fly because I do not have the time to think each phrase through i real time (who has that?)

The rules are intended for the practice room, to get the sound of jazz in your ear and the mechanics of it under your fingers. One of the things about the BH method is that is *sounds* like jazz; I hear players that have been through Berklee, GIT, etc., who play well but don't sound like jazz. BH has developed a teaching method that seems to avoid that pitfall.

IMHO no one at a gig should ever play a scale. They should be playing phrases, speaking a musical language- expressing one's relationship with the song, the other people on stage and the audience. Scales won't teach you that. The BH rules are intended to be a shortcut around a lot of trial and error, but they shouldn't be thought about on stage. In addition to this, make sure you learn the melody of every song you play (which is advice I seriously need to take for myself- I am lazy and tend to leave the melody to the horns. But on the tunes that I know the melody- can play it and phrase it by heart, not from a chart- it is *so* much easier to solo and feel like I actually sounded good).

[karsten_selleri]

The problem with your line is that you start a half-step rule for 2-1 on an off-beat (the e is on 3 & ) . The half-step rules are there to keep your line in-sync with the beat, you are getting it 'out-of-sync' this way!


Just look at fig. 1-13 for many examples. All half-step rules start on the beat.

A correct line (second bar) is B-Bb-A-G-F-E-D or B-Bb-A-G-F-E-D-C-B

Cheers

You spotted the error! Thank you, sir ☺️

I guess The Rules aren't a copy+paste tool. This sounds really stupid, I know. Lol.

You have to use your logic and skepticism in each line when you practice, I believe. And only see The Rule of a means to an end as Cunamara states.

Thanks for all your help everyone! :-)