Chord Substitutions and Soloing

[AlsoRan]

I have been working hard on my comping. I have learned many substitutions that I can make on the fly to make a progression interesting.

I would like to know the effect, if any that substitution has on the soloist. I notice many substitutions contained a lot of the notes of the chord being substituted. Does this make a difference?

Thanks.

[jordanklemons]

Totally depends on the player, how much they listen, the tune, the tempo, etc. Plenty of players haven't the slightest clue how to actually listen. Blame it on iRealB or jazz education or the over-inundation with bad information available to us or whatever... there's a lot of non-listening going on.

Probably one of the coolest compliments I've ever gotten was from a bass player who told me how much she enjoyed playing with me. She pointed out that as a bass player, near 100% of the musicians (besides drummers) actually pay attention to what she's doing and bringing to the table. It's very evident to her when she's being ignored and obviously isn't something she appreciates. But after the 3 or 4th gig I did with her she and I were chatting over a drink and she told me how much she appreciated that I was actually listening to her. It was a compliment in the sense of her telling me how good my ears were. Though I accepted it as a compliment. But she was just pointing out that most people don't listen, and how fun it was for her to play with someone like me who puts forth the effort to pay attention to her and create music TOGETHER.

So the effect on the soloist will depend. Some guys like Sonny have flat out stated that they don't like the comping to get in his way or try and force him to play a certain way. Other guys like Wayne are CLEARLY leaving as much space as possible for the rhythm section to become actively involved and to play off of each other as much as, if not more than, the form itself.

[pkirk]

Just to be a smartass: The effect of changing how you comp on the soloist might be nothing, it might totally change what he plays, it might piss him/her off, it might make him never hire you again, it might encourage him to use you on his next record, it might teach him to hear things in a new way. etc. more seriously, the only answer to your question is "it depends."

But some thoughts related to your question are: the context matters in how you comp. You probably don't want to do a McCoy thing at a dixieland gig. Or a freddy green thing in a Ornette tribute band. Or busy comping if the band also has a busy pianist, etc etc. You don't want to do stuff that will confuse your bandmates, so you have to make sure you are playing within the boundaries they can hear.

SO the bottom line is, the more you know about comping, the more "stuff" you have to draw on, and the more likely you will be able to comp in a manner *appropriate to the musical situation you find yourself in*.

More concretely: you said you learned "substitutions". presumably this means things like tritone subs on V chords, relative minor/major on major/minor chords, etc. I find that these types of subs provide you with slightly more ambiguous harmony. Ambiguous harmony tends to work better with more modern styles.

[AlsoRan]

I am with you gents so far.

By the way, to clarify, I am using a comping book that has different progressions. Here are a couple of the subs.

For Dmi7 - G7 - CMaj7, I might make it FMaj7 - G7 - CMaj7

For the good old 1625 in C Major:

I might start out with CMaj7 - Ami7 - Dmi7 - G7 and substitute:

Emi7 - A7 - Dmi7 - G7
or
CMaj7 - Dbdim7 - Dmi7 - Bdim7, knowing that the Dbdim7 gives you that A7b9 sound and Bdim7 gives you that G7b9 sound.

I love good comping, but I am seeing that I can't be getting all fancy with subs without risking failure.

[christianm77]

One thing I tend to clock is how the soloist is playing. This might sound super advanced, but it's fairly simple, really, you just need to listen. Most players play in a style, so you can hear it and adjust your playing appropriately.

Some guys play swing melodies and embellishments, some bop lines, some CST stuff, some triad pairs and superpositions, some guys are all pentatonics, some guys go crazy out. LISTEN.

If you can't hear it - train your ears more. Listening to records and gigs is important, but I find formal ear training sharpens up my ear in unexpected ways.

All of this will affect the type of harmony you play. Swing guys want simple chords, as do bop guys really, with some more freedom perhaps in the upper structures. If you can hear the CST guy is playing modes sometimes you have more leeway on playing more intervallic harmony but you have to be careful. Out stuff can demand very simple comping, or similarly out. If someone is playing a traid pair, chances are you don't need to as well. In fact a good sax player doesn't NEED you to comp for them.

If they aren't in a 'style' - well, if in doubt keep it simple.

If you play in a group with bass, your job is to voice-lead the inner voices. Stay off the bass's turf. Often that's the most boring part of a chord, but some players like to interact with the comper, which gives you more space to do 'cool shit.' Not everyone is like that though.

If you play in a group without bass, you have the opportunity to have some control in this area. Can be a lot of fun.

Personally I hate over-comping. I don't want to be that guy.

Finally, record solos and comp for yourself. Record the comping too, and listen back to the result. Evaluate.

[christianm77]

I am with you gents so far.

By the way, to clarify, I am using a comping book that has different progressions. Here are a couple of the subs.

For Dmi7 - G7 - CMaj7, I might make it FMaj7 - G7 - CMaj7

For the good old 1625 in C Major:

I might start out with CMaj7 - Ami7 - Dmi7 - G7 and substitute:

Emi7 - A7 - Dmi7 - G7
or
CMaj7 - Dbdim7 - Dmi7 - Bdim7, knowing that the Dbdim7 gives you that A7b9 sound and Bdim7 gives you that G7b9 sound.

I love good comping, but I am seeing that I can't be getting all fancy with subs without risking failure.

Voice leading is all important, and focus on the top line melody.

Simple chords used well are better than complex chords used poorly. Every time.

[ragman1]

I am seeing that I can't be getting all fancy with subs without risking failure.

That's the problem right there. Risk it.

(From what you've said your subs aren't that earth-shattering anyway. Em7 for CM7? Dbo for A7? Who cares? If you don't try something else where will you be? Don't, ever, let fear intrude. End of story, right? Anyway, if they really don't like it they'll soon tell you).

(Or if they're a lot of boring old stick-in-the-muds also afraid of failure get a new band)

[AlsoRan]

That's the problem right there. Risk it.

(From what you've said your subs aren't that earth-shattering anyway. Em7 for CM7? Dbo for A7? Who cares? If you don't try something else where will you be? Don't, ever, let fear intrude. End of story, right? Anyway, if they really don't like it they'll soon tell you).

(Or if they're a lot of boring old stick-in-the-muds also afraid of failure get a new band)

Ha!ha!

You sound like a lot of fun there, ragman.

I do understand what you folks are saying, however. It probably all comes down to ones individual personality and how well one wants to blend in, or storm out there and set the tone.

But I can really see how ChristianM77 is letting me know to learn to use those ears.

[christianm77]

Ha!ha!

You sound like a lot of fun there, ragman.

I do understand what you folks are saying, however. It probably all comes down to ones individual personality and how well one wants to blend in, or storm out there and set the tone.

But I can really see how ChristianM77 is letting me know to learn to use those ears.

I also endorse what ragman is saying.. Risk is important and trying stuff is important so the music doesn't get sterile... It's ebb and flow. It's not either or...

But your main job when comping is to support, as long as you don't lose sight of that and make sure you are listening to the other musicians, it should all work out...

Comping is a real art and is the application of harmony, rhythms etc to making ensemble music, rather than the study of them.

For example, one thing I like to do in a group is comp in single note lines. I tend to do this on the melody (as an obligato) or in groups where counterpoint is the prevailing aesthetic. I can also understand that it might not be for everyone. In America you are lucky, because people will say if they like something, or don't like it, so you get feedback right away. In the UK they say nothing to your face :-)

[AlsoRan]

.... In America you are lucky, because people will say if they like something, or don't like it, so you get feedback right away. In the UK they say nothing to your face :-)

This part of your post was humorous. I thought UK folks were a little more outspoken. During my visits, I was never at a loss for conversation and I learned a lot about history and some of the prevailing social sentiments on God, country, UK history (which is quite, quite extensive), immigration, and the current (perceived) attitudes of countrymen from different parts of the UK.

But getting back to the topic, thanks for your feedback. Single-note comping is touched on in an instructional DVD-Video from Corey Christiansen. He demonstrates in on a Blues progression and I thought is sounded really good. I believe it was called "Playing in the Pocket."

In fact, I am going to have to pull that DVD out again...

[Jonah]

I have been working hard on my comping. I have learned many substitutions that I can make on the fly to make a progression interesting.

I would like to know the effect, if any that substitution has on the soloist. I notice many substitutions contained a lot of the notes of the chord being substituted. Does this make a difference?

To secure it I try to play chords that do not contain dissonant extensions of the original chord... (like if there's 9 or 13 of the original chord it's ok, if there's b9 it is a risk)...

though I had quite an opposite case.. when I played very light alt chord on dominant... not really heavy.. just b913 I think... but the soloist decided to stay in smooth sus chord sound... playing on diatonc 9

But I do not have that much experience in the live gigs...

But just one thing I noticed even with that...
that it is much more important to me where in measure I put the sub and the attack, the accent.. making this chord sound very short or something like that... approach chords are dissonant usually but they are just approach... you know...
than actually if it's too dissonant or not....

You kind of play it in a way that you can move off/on to something quickly in case it goes wrong...

But again not that much experience I have

[ragman1]

You sound like a lot of fun there, ragman.

Oh, you wouldn't believe :-)

Btw, change your name. AlsoRan is negative already!


(You know what I think? I think you're pretty bright, possibly a lot brighter than you think. And it can be difficult for people like that. I don't know how old you are either, maybe not that old. But you will develop a belief in yourself sooner or later and especially if, as we're saying here, you're not afraid to experiment. It doesn't mean going wild and playing nonsense, though, there's a difference).

[AlsoRan]

Oh, you wouldn't believe :-)

Btw, change your name. AlsoRan is negative already!


(You know what I think? I think you're pretty bright, possibly a lot brighter than you think. And it can be difficult for people like that. I don't know how old you are either, maybe not that old. But you will develop a belief in yourself sooner or later and especially if, as we're saying here, you're not afraid to experiment. It doesn't mean going wild and playing nonsense, though, there's a difference).

I was going to make a joke about self-esteem but then I thought the wiser of it.

I chose that name AlsoRan because I am one of the many who taken on the challenge and joy of playing the guitar. In my early life, I met so many people who gave themselves nicknames like "Superstar" and "Topdog," yet in action were rather pathetic and failed to live up to the hype, that I swore I would never go that route.

If fact, I take the name as a personal challenge to myself. In sports, I always refer to myself as the "Old Man," and then I take great personal satisfaction in far exceeding the expectation it creates.

Besides, there are enough guys tooting their own horn. And I agree, it is very effective if one can back it up or bullshit others into thinking they can.

When it comes to fancy nicknames and avatars, I have to think of that old song a friend used to sing that had a line in it that went, "But not for me."

Heh, Heh. (By the way, I am 54 years old and still lovin' this stuff)

[Lionelsax]

Many musicians cannot play a chord progression properly, substitutions are good when the tune is very well known, when no one needs ink to play it.

[Vladan]

Don't do unto others what you don't want others to do unto you!

[Lionelsax]

The easiest way is to play tritone substitutions, but in a comfortable way : C7 becomes F#7alt for example or C7alt becomes F#9 (it doesn't change a lot of things).

And for the very common chord progressions like blues and Rhythm Changes, you can add turnarounds, I VI II V instead of I V
II V instead of V etc.

But they are not very surprising substitutions !!!

A lot of people who are used to playing in solo in this forum, play acrobatic substitutions, guitar and piano players are used to doing it.

On the other hand comping with great substitutions can be fun, when someone is soloing too "modal" not in a tonal be bop approach (I mean using only one or two modes all along a tonal chord progression without caring about the chords and what they mean).

[ragman1]

I am 54 years old

Oh well, you've got years ahead of you yet :-)

[rpjazzguitar]

<By the way, to clarify, I am using a comping book that has different progressions. Here are a couple of the subs.

For Dmi7 - G7 - CMaj7, I might make it FMaj7 - G7 - CMaj7>

Fmaj7 is F A C E. Dm7 is D F A C.

If the bassist plays a D (likely, since the chord is a Dm7), in effect, the band is not playing an Fmaj7. Rather, it's playing D F A C E, which is a Dm9.

Now, what impact does the fact that you added an E to the chord have? The main risk would be if the soloist played a note that seriously clashes without making it work via an interesting melody. In this case, the worst note might be Eb, which will create a half step interval with your E. Notably, a half step the other way is an F, which won't hurt, because it's already in the chord.

I would not expect a soloist to lean on an Eb against a Dm7 either, so I'm not sure adding the ninth hurts you. And that's why it works.

I think there's more to consider if you're altering a 7th chord. In that case, if you add, say, the 9th, there's a very real risk that the soloist is going to play a #9 or b9 and it might not sound good. So, unless you know the soloist's tendencies, you're better off playing thirds and sevenths and building on them carefully. Or, you can play sparsely enough to avoid clashing that way. Similar argument if the soloist is altering fifths (and that often happens on a major chord too).

Another thing that can go wrong is you play a tritone sub right when the soloist does the exact same thing. So, for example, the changes are Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 and the soloist decides to play a Gb7 arp against the C7. He's in great shape with that. He's got (from the point of view of the C7) the #11, b7, b9 and 3. That's going to create a beautiful contrast with your C7 (and probably even better if he's an octave above your chord). UNLESS you decide to substitute a Gb7 for the C7 also. If you do that, then there's no harmonic tension, the soloist suddenly sounds like he's playing inside and the chord change sounds trite. Not just tritones of course -- if the soloist needs you to play the original harmony so that he can create contrast with a superimposed harmony -- he doesn't want you to play what he's playing.

Will you be able to hear what he's doing on the fly and comp appropriately? I have asked some truly great players this question. The answer is, they don't always know, but they try to hear something, even a single note, that will give them a clue about what the other player is doing. If you can't, then you play simply and sparsely, roots, thirds and sevenths and keep training your ear.

[AlsoRan]

<By the way, to clarify, I am using a comping book that has different progressions. Here are a couple of the subs.

For Dmi7 - G7 - CMaj7, I might make it FMaj7 - G7 - CMaj7>

Fmaj7 is F A C E. Dm7 is D F A C.

If the bassist plays a D (likely, since the chord is a Dm7), in effect, the band is not playing an Fmaj7. Rather, it's playing D F A C E, which is a Dm9.

Now, what impact does the fact that you added an E to the chord have? The main risk would be if the soloist played a note that seriously clashes without making it work via an interesting melody. In this case, the worst note might be Eb, which will create a half step interval with your E. Notably, a half step the other way is an F, which won't hurt, because it's already in the chord.

I would not expect a soloist to lean on an Eb against a Dm7 either, so I'm not sure adding the ninth hurts you. And that's why it works.

I think there's more to consider if you're altering a 7th chord. In that case, if you add, say, the 9th, there's a very real risk that the soloist is going to play a #9 or b9 and it might not sound good. So, unless you know the soloist's tendencies, you're better off playing thirds and sevenths and building on them carefully. Or, you can play sparsely enough to avoid clashing that way. Similar argument if the soloist is altering fifths (and that often happens on a major chord too).

Another thing that can go wrong is you play a tritone sub right when the soloist does the exact same thing. So, for example, the changes are Gm7 C7 Fmaj7 and the soloist decides to play a Gb7 arp against the C7. He's in great shape with that. He's got (from the point of view of the C7) the #11, b7, b9 and 3. That's going to create a beautiful contrast with your C7 (and probably even better if he's an octave above your chord). UNLESS you decide to substitute a Gb7 for the C7 also. If you do that, then there's no harmonic tension, the soloist suddenly sounds like he's playing inside and the chord change sounds trite. Not just tritones of course -- if the soloist needs you to play the original harmony so that he can create contrast with a superimposed harmony -- he doesn't want you to play what he's playing.

Will you be able to hear what he's doing on the fly and comp appropriately? I have asked some truly great players this question. The answer is, they don't always know, but they try to hear something, even a single note, that will give them a clue about what the other player is doing. If you can't, then you play simply and sparsely, roots, thirds and sevenths and keep training your ear.

Thanks for taking the time to put such great illustrations in your comments. It really helps hearing these perspectives, especially on the art of using altered subs in concert with the soloist.

[ragman1]

Will you be able to hear what he's doing on the fly and comp appropriately? I have asked some truly great players this question. The answer is, they don't always know, but they try to hear something, even a single note, that will give them a clue about what the other player is doing. If you can't, then you play simply and sparsely, roots, thirds and sevenths and keep training your ear.

There's no way at all you're going to fit everything perfectly every time, is there? It's impossible. All you can do is, like they say, listen hard and play the best you can. Experience will out, no doubt, but there's no foolproof method. Except maybe take up gardening

[KirkP]

The main thing I try to keep in mind when comping for a soloist is not to box them in harmonically or rythmically. I'll try to leave enough space for the soloist to take the solo where he wants it to go. I try to respond to that and adjust my harmony and rhythm to complement. I might feed the soloist some ideas, but I try not to push it if the soloist seems to be headed somewhere else.

(I'm smiling as I realize with a few word substitutions that paragraph could be retitled "How to Please Your Lover.")

[Lionelsax]

Some one talked about tempo and he is perfectly right, you can make substitutions as if you were playing chords rootless, OK it's fine, but imagine if the guy really hears A- as a really minor chord, and not an Fmaj7 substitution... What's happening if she or he plays A dorian on this ?
I really think, substitutions are good in a tune where there are two chords per bar, in up tempo it sounds good, look at the way Rhythm Changes can be played... They are full of substitutions, but it doesn't change a lot of things, same way with a blues, a lot of tension can be add.


Bb G7 C-7 F7 = Bb B° C7 B7alt = D- C#7 C-7 B7alt etc.

On a blues...

C7 / B7+9 / C7 / C7
F7 / F#°7 / G-6 / A7+9
D-7 / G7 / E- A7+9 / D- G7

It will sound like a blues...

On the other hand, a bunch of guitarists play substitutions without knowing it, using voicings and its extensions on D G B E strings.

[rpjazzguitar]

If the chord is Fmaj7 and the comping instrument plays Am triad (A C E), the sound of the band as a whole will depend entirely on the bassist. The most likely bass note is an F, which means that the band is playing an Fmaj7.

If the soloist hears this as an Am, or for some reason, decides to play A dorian, there are two potential problems. One is the B note. It will be heard as a #11, and that might sound good, or it might clash with the C in the chord. It will depend on the strength of the melody, how long the note lasts, and which octave it's in.

Tip for beginners: If you're going to play a clam, play it an octave higher.

The other problem is the F#. That note is, arguably, the worst possible against an Fmaj7 (some may hate Ab more). But, if the bassist is playing an F, meaning the band is playing an Fmaj7, the soloist ought to be able to hear that an F# is not going to sound inside and, in fact, may sound on the fringes of outside.

Then, there's the situation in which the bassist, believing mistakenly that he's a jazz musician, decides that he's going to play a 3rd -- and sits on a low A. The band is then playing an Am, not an Fmaj7. Will A dorian work? I think that depends on the overall chord progression. If the two chords preceding were Gm7 C7, the ear may be expecting F ionian, not A dorian. I think that A dorian will still sound on the fringes of outside (because you so strongly anticipate a F), but, OTOH, surprises can make the music great.

Basically, you try it, and see if the phone rings next week.

[Lionelsax]

If the chord is Fmaj7 and the comping instrument plays Am triad (A C E), the sound of the band as a whole will depend entirely on the bassist. The most likely bass note is an F, which means that the band is playing an Fmaj7.

If the soloist hears this as an Am, or for some reason, decides to play A dorian, there are two potential problems. One is the B note. It will be heard as a #11, and that might sound good, or it might clash with the C in the chord. It will depend on the strength of the melody, how long the note lasts, and which octave it's in.

Tip for beginners: If you're going to play a clam, play it an octave higher.

The other problem is the F#. That note is, arguably, the worst possible against an Fmaj7 (some may hate Ab more). But, if the bassist is playing an F, meaning the band is playing an Fmaj7, the soloist ought to be able to hear that an F# is not going to sound inside and, in fact, may sound on the fringes of outside.

Then, there's the situation in which the bassist, believing mistakenly that he's a jazz musician, decides that he's going to play a 3rd -- and sits on a low A. The band is then playing an Am, not an Fmaj7. Will A dorian work? I think that depends on the overall chord progression. If the two chords preceding were Gm7 C7, the ear may be expecting F ionian, not A dorian. I think that A dorian will still sound on the fringes of outside (because you so strongly anticipate a F), but, OTOH, surprises can make the music great.

Basically, you try it, and see if the phone rings next week.

A lot of musicians cannot understand what's happening when a bass player has decided to play inversions.
For this question, I asked, it depends of the instruments :

- a bass and a soloist, it's always alright except if the guitar player has decided to play low notes...

- two guitarists, it becomes a muddy thing if they don't listen to each other, and remember, a guitarist is sometimes a diva (maybe more in rock and roll) and just listen to himself

- a guitar and a melodic instrument, there might be no problem

I think that Freddie Green resolved the problem decades ago about playing with an orchestra...