Diminished vs. Altered Scale

[bobbystern]

I've posted an introductory article detailing similarities and differences between the Diminished Scale vs. Altered Scale, as common "go to" choices over altered V7 chords.

[christianm77]

Indeed, good article : but there's something I think you missed. A lot of players do. It's a three (or four) way bout!

---Boring old Major/Minor harmony---

One thing that gets a bit overlooked in modern jazz theory is the minor scale, and how it used in traditional common practice harmony. You probably know this stuff well but maybe don't think of it as being relevant to jazz. Anyway, we start with is the natural minor scale. Now if we want to construct a V chord in minor this obviously has a minor 3rd The simplest solution is obviously to raise this to a major 3rd, which we can do be raising the 7th degree by a half step:

1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1, the natural minor, becomes 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 1, the harmonic minor.

So far, so basic music theory. This has been in use for at least 400 years.

The thing is though, despite being the obvious boring choice - this is Charlie Parker's (and his acolytes') favourite way of expressing the V7b9 chord. Take the last few bars of Donna Lee as an example, but there are countless more examples from his music.

It was probably his favourite scale. It can also be applied on a diminished chord too - but that's a whole other epic post! Miles Davis loved this scale too...

--Melodic concessions--

However, very common practice is melodically to use both forms of the scale together on a dominant - raising or lowering that note as we need to ensure a smooth melodic flow. While Parker was happy (like Mozart) to play an augmented second between 7 and b6 when descending through the scale by step, in some cases the natural minor version of the note made for much less awkward melodies (again like Mozart).

(NB: we are overlooking the option of raising the 6th - melodic minor - you can do this too. But let's leave that for now.)

Donna Lee again serves up some good examples of this... More on this later.

--Old Fashioned Minor Dominant and comparison with Berklee Altered Scale--

If we combine the C natural and harmonic minors and look at them from the dominant, in this case G, we have what I call the minor dominant scale - a combination of Phrygian and Phrygian dominant if you like. It looks like this:

G minor dominant (or mode V minor)
G Ab Bb B C D Eb F

It is two notes different from the Altered Scale - a very close relative, no?

G Altered scale
G Ab Bb B (Cb) Db Eb F

And - from the point of view the Db is the b2 of the key (assuming we are in C major/minor.) The use of a b2-7-1 enclosure on a chord, for instance would give us that V altered flavour.

This 8 note minor mode has a few things in common with the altered scale, one of which is the fact that it contains the Abmin(maj7) and Abm6 arpeggio:

Ab B Eb G
Ab B Eb F

So they are really very closely related harmonically, as this is one of the distinctive aspects of the altered scale - the b2 minor upper structure that we see in tunes like Hot House, Night in Tunisia and so on.

--- Comparison with Diminished Half-Whole ---

Furthermore, the Minor Dominant scale is often mistaken for the diminished scale due to it's close similarity to that scale.

G minor dominant
G Ab Bb B C D Eb F

Here is the dim scale in it's H-W mode:
G Ab Bb B Db D E F

Again, a close relative.

--Comparison of all three, the Family of 1-b2-b3-3, and the importance of the first tetrachord--

All three together, this time in numbers?

1 b2 b3 3 4 5 b6 b7 Minor dominant
1 b2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7 Altered
1 b2 b3 3 b5 5 6 b7 H-W Diminished

Notice how the differences are all in the 4ths, 5ths and 6ths? The first tetrachord 1 b2 b3 3 (H W H) is the same, and extremely common in jazz lines. It's the other notes that change.

I would advise a student to concentrate on these four notes - 1 b2 b3 3 - as an essential piece of bop vocabulary. These scales are part of the family of that tetrachord. Now I need a good name for it...

--Example from the Wilds of Bop---

Take this line from Donna Lee, given here over a G7 chord resolving to C:



It can be understood as either Diminished H-W or Minor Dominant resolving to a major chord in bar 2. It's obviously not altered, because of the D natural. Others might invoke the harmonic major for the whole passage.

I choose the Minor Dominant understanding in this case because it relates to the Western tradition - it's what Bach and Mozart would have done - using the minor scale, in this case minor resolving to major (or a Tierce de Picardy). I do not believe Bird was reinventing the wheel in this case.

But by using the diminished scale instead of the minor we are stepping outside of the major/minor system of Bach etc. This is no bad thing, but I put it to you that the old school major/minor harmony explanation is the more traditional, and probably has a stronger rooting in the musical understanding before the Chord Scale System. (It is also the one taught by Barry Harris.)

--Conclusion--

The altered and diminished (and whole tone) scales can be understood as an extension of this practice which comes from tonal harmony. I'm not saying don't use these sounds - far from it, these are terrific sounds -- but understand how they are different from bog standard major/minor Western harmony. In many cases, not very.

I don't post this to be a smart ass, but rather to point out something pretty simple that gets overlooked. But the basic principle of your blog I think is absolutely the way to study scales... Just one or two notes gives you all the info you need. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[bobbystern]

Christian, if you have a preference for the minor dominant scale because that's what you hear on a dominant chord, or because Miles, Mozart, Bird, Bach or Barry Harris have used it for 400 years, that's certainly your prerogative. The jazz language is ever expanding. Jazz education seems not to be, however, choosing to be by and large formulaic, conservative and level 101ish.

Personally, I would never have confused a C minor dominant with a C 1-2 diminished or a C altered scale because the C minor dominant is all about F min. It's an F natural minor (aeolian) with a half step between b7 & 8, played from C. It's very tonal. It's got a subdominant and a dominant from both ends. Groovy!!

As a saxophonist coming up with '60s post-bop, post Donna Lee harmonic concepts, my approach to dominant tension and release tends to be a bit more altered, and my attempts at teaching, as well as in my books, reflect this. The dominant chord is a world unto itself, the most malleable and flexible in Western music. The Diminished & Altered Scales provide a gateway into post 19th century tension and resolution, but still rooted in those earlier principals. I could drop a loooong list of names of pioneers and practitioners, but...I won't.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. And yes, I do think you're a being a smart ass... it takes one to know one!

[matt.guitarteacher]

I've posted an introductory article detailing similarities and differences between the Diminished Scale vs. Altered Scale, as common "go to" choices over altered V7 chords.

Finally had a chance to read. Enjoyed as always, Bobby. I think I would enjoy your writing, even if I didn't understand any of the theory bits. You have a gift for making the mundane enjoyable.

So many blogs are just another part of the "funnel" for marketing. I know yours is probably THAT as well, but it very much stands on its own, apart from mere content. Congrats and thanks.

[christianm77]

Christian, if you have a preference for the minor dominant scale because that's what you hear on a dominant chord, or because Miles, Mozart, Bird, Bach or Barry Harris have used it for 400 years, that's certainly your prerogative. The jazz language is ever expanding. Jazz education seems not to be, however, choosing to be by and large formulaic, conservative and level 101ish.

It's not a preference exactly. I'm not saying these sounds are 'better' or 'worse.'

If you are interested in studying and internalising authentic bebop language, then I think this is an important realisation. No-one talks about it much, perhaps because it's assumed to be obvious.

But - cos you play sax (I assumed you were a guitarist) - I want to ask is the stuff I have talked about in fact blindingly obvious to you as a player of that instrument?

I know I learned a lot by running scales on piano, right away you see how things go with scales running over chords in black and white, so to speak...

The guitar is a strange and very difficult instrument when it comes to this sort of thing, and I think it's suffered a bit from piano/sax pedagogy being applied to it. The guitar is a 2D plane - it's a 'shapes instrument' - the piano is a 1D line - it's a 'scale instrument' - one note after the other.

For example, it's not in any way obvious if you are playing a note that doesnt belong to the key unless you know the fretboard to a decent level. That takes years. On piano, you know right away even if you are a beginner and have to play everything in C major.

Bop changes running with scales - and chord scale theory - make a lot more sense to me at the keyboard, and I'm not kind of pianist. In order to use them, I have moved over to mapping the guitar as a keyboard. This may in fact be a total fools errand. There's a lot to be said for making the guitar do guitar things ;-) but anyway.

Personally, I would never have confused a C minor dominant with a C 1-2 diminished or a C altered scale because the C minor dominant is all about F min. It's an F natural minor (aeolian) with a half step between b7 & 8, played from C. It's very tonal. It's got a subdominant and a dominant from both ends. Groovy!!

But the Donna Lee example is completely ambiguous. There's nothing in the line to say it's diminished or minor dom.

People interpret it as either. You would be forgiven in this case for saying that the line is 1/2-W and I would have no clinching reason to say you were wrong, other than the fact that I prefer the other explanation because it relates to tonal harmony and it seems simpler to me because you only need the bog standard scales you learned doing 'normal music'.

But the scale is has some very nice features... The enclosure of the G# that's built into the scale is fun as well.

The C minor dominant also has the Ab min6(maj7) sound in it too... It's not a big step away to get to altered.

There's a lot in there. The most practical aspect of this scale is that it allows you to adapt pre existing major dominant language, but that's another post.

As a saxophonist coming up with '60s post-bop, post Donna Lee harmonic concepts, my approach to dominant tension and release tends to be a bit more altered, and my attempts at teaching, as well as in my books, reflect this.

Well I'm exploring this stuff ATM in fact - I like CST sounds, intervallic lines and so on. It's cool. I'm not a bebop nazi..

Again, I feel that guitarists aren't aware of this stuff and perhaps sax players maybe are more so? This stuff isn't common knowledge AFAIK among guitarists. Sax players tend to have a deeper bop tradition than most guitar players for all sorts of reasons.

The dominant chord is a world unto itself, the most malleable and flexible in Western music. The Diminished & Altered Scales provide a gateway into post 19th century tension and resolution, but still rooted in those earlier principals. I could drop a loooong list of names of pioneers and practitioners, but...I won't.

I think someone once said Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire was essentially one long altered dominant.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. And yes, I do think you're a being a smart ass... it takes one to know one!

Haha

[wolflen]

I've posted an introductory article detailing similarities and differences between the Diminished Scale vs. Altered Scale, as common "go to" choices over altered V7 chords.

Thank you Bobby...you have given me many hours of discovery with your lessons..

Have a good New Year...

BTW..I ordered your book on the diminished scale...a scale that keeps on giving...

[matt.guitarteacher]

Take this line from Donna Lee, given here over a G7 chord resolving to C:



It can be understood as either Diminished H-W or Minor Dominant resolving to a major chord in bar 2. It's obviously not altered, because of the D natural. Others might invoke the harmonic major for the whole passage.

this is the kind of thing Reg always talks about playing "altered on the weak side". Always talks about starting with diatonic as reference, and then, on the weak side of the beat/phrase, going altered.

Do you necessarily have to find a single scale to justify the whole thing? This is why people say chord/scale "doesn't work". Meanwhile, mixolydian works for dominant, and so does altered, and players like Reg simply think of it THAT way.

[Hep To The Jive]

When I saw this I could sing it right away in my head because it's my fav V-I line! So it comes from Donna Lee, ha... I didn't realize where I picked it from, funny.

But in 1000 years I would never thought of it as scale, it's a broken altered chord to me! I mean arpeggio or something... It's not that I don't know the scales, just never think of them. I see the shape of a chord and all those notes that I can drag along with it.

Sorry, just a personal observation. You theory geeks carry on

[edh]

Thanks Bobby.

[christianm77]

When I saw this I could sing it right away in my head because it's my fav V-I line! So it comes from Donna Lee, ha... I didn't realize where I picked it from, funny.

But in 1000 years I would never thought of it as scale, it's a broken altered chord to me! I mean arpeggio or something... It's not that I don't know the scales, just never think of them. I see the shape of a chord and all those notes that I can drag along with it.

Sorry, just a personal observation. You theory geeks carry on

Well, I suppose the concept of the 'C minor scale' is a bit high fallutin' for some ;-)

The reason I think of it that way is I find easier to come up with lines that share the same sound without simply playing licks. This line is a mix of thirds and steps - so it's an arpeggio with some scalar information.

You can break a scale into thirds and steps to produce lines like this. A lot of bop lines look like this, and I believe this is why Barry Harris teaches this way.

But of course you can look at it as an arpeggio with extra notes - I used to do this. It's very guitaristic to think in chords.

[christianm77]

this is the kind of thing Reg always talks about playing "altered on the weak side". Always talks about starting with diatonic as reference, and then, on the weak side of the beat/phrase, going altered.

Do you necessarily have to find a single scale to justify the whole thing? This is why people say chord/scale "doesn't work". Meanwhile, mixolydian works for dominant, and so does altered, and players like Reg simply think of it THAT way.

Or, as I like to think of it, it's a melody in C minor on G7, resolving to a C major chord. Seems straightforward to me.

[bobbystern]

I'd like to say that I think that this is the most informative forum dedicated to the subject of jazz improv on the web right now and I thank you guys for the intelligent discourse.

I may have been a bit hasty with my take on the minor dominant scale, brought up by christianm77. Upon checking it out a bit closer, I realized that the C minor dominant in Christian's example is actually an Ab bebop scale - Ab Major with a half step between scale steps 5 & 6 (E).

I originally learned Bebop Scales back in the day from David Baker who taught that the added half step was a passing tone, used to make the seven note Maj. scale come out evenly when played in eighth notes (so that the Maj. chord tones would be aligned with the strong downbeats).

Barry Harris employs this exact same scale, but with the added note not only as a mere passing tone, but as a full, harmonically functional part of the scale, creating a diminished seventh chord on alternating steps of the scale.

In the case of Christian's example above, the added E would be the all important 3rd of of a C7 chord, the V7 of F. The full chord with extensions: C7 b9 #9 11 b13. Once I had a chance to mess around with it a bit today, I realized it has more in common, as Christian suggested, with both the diminished and Altered Scales, sound wise, than I originally realized. The most interesting feature is that it's got 3 of the 4 altered extensions, but with a natural 4 (11) instead of a b5 (#4 or #11). Definitely worthy of further investigation.

Thanks Christian. Thanks guys

[christianm77]

That's not a perspective I had considered. I guess I would personally say major 6th-dim (you mean Eb, not Ab surely?) being a Barry devotee and I always think of the bop scale as being a stepwise kind of deal, but it's the same scale. Anyway I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks!

Incidentally, the way BH talks about this scale is that we put the dominant/mixolydian scale on m7b5 (similar to David Baker) and raise the root of this chord so it fits the third of the 7b9 - so for instance in my example.

Dm7b5 - play Bb dominant/mixolydian
G7 - raise the Bb to a B
Cm - resolve

(I remember DB talking about this but couldn't track it down int he Bebop books, so maybe it's a false memory)

We could call this scale mixolydian #1. (It is the easiest shout for dim7s BTW.)

In practice both versions of the note can be used together (as in our Donna Lee example)

Might seem pointless and awkward, but AFAIK the value of this is that it allows you to apply major dominant (mixolydian perhaps even lyd dom) language on minor dominants with a small tweak, so maximum application of material.

All kinds of derivations of this scale.

[Vladan]

Donna Lee example ...

If you look at it CST way and the chord is G in key of C, then the scale is G in reference to C = mixolydian + 2 altered notes
If you look at it as a key only, then it is C + borrowed notes from C min.
Seeing whole lick as C min would imply key change, from (C to) C minor (back) to C.
IMO, "minor" reference could be hands on explanation how to execute in practice,
but not the why to do it and why it works.

Also, I don't know if this matters at all in regard to your analysis, but in Donna Lee,
out of 4 occurrences not one is as presented in your example.

1. & 4. are displaced by two beats, so the lick is split btw 2 bars,
first part of the lick being beats 3 and 4 of V7,
second part being beats 1 and 2 of I7, resolving on the 3rd beat, if that's resolving at all, since the chord is dominant?

2. is more similar to your example, but it's played over V7 resolving not to I, but to I7, ie. dominant, if that is resolving at all?

3. is the most similar as it resolves to IM7 (as implied by I in your example) but it does not resolve from V7b9, but rather from plain V7.
Actually I think originally the first chord is also dominant, only they turned it Maj by brute force, to provide "proper" resolution point, as well as to obscure *** see below ***.
If the chord was V7b9, it would be more to the "minor" explanation, but it is not, it is V7.

IMO, You should not mention Donna Lee, or you should use something else as example.

Also, IMO, all above analysis, including mine, is pretty much overly wordily way to say ***blues***.

[christianm77]

Donna Lee example ...

If you look at it CST way and the chord is G in key of C, then the scale is G in reference to C = mixolydian + 2 altered notes
If you look at it as a key only, then it is C + borrowed notes from C min.
Seeing whole lick as C min would imply key change, from (C to) C minor (back) to C.
IMO, "minor" reference could be hands on explanation how to execute in practice,
but not the why to do it and why it works.

The use of Modal Interchange - in this case the use of parallel minor chords in the major key is so common as to be completely unremarkable.

While you are in a sense correct to say that only two notes in the line are outside the C major scale - and this could form an understanding, also bear in mind that this line works beautifully in C minor - just change the last note to an Eb. Because of this and the fact that the whole line fits within the minor scale (harmonic and natural versions) I think it's easier to think of it as a dominant line in minor, in this case resolving to major.

Basically bar 1 is a minor ii-V lick. That allows a lot more flexibility than thinking 'major with alterations' because you can use a minor lick in a minor context, and if you understand relative minor/the Barry Harris thing I posted above, you can use major ii-V stuff on minor. Which is good because I am LAZY.

But as I say, different people understand things differently. My understanding is pretty old school though, FWIW.

Think of the chords Fm, G7b9, Bb7 and Dm7b5 and how often these get used in the C major key in standards progressions. This isn't a jazz thing either. People have been doing this for hundreds of years.

I remember reading one classical harmony text that suggested we think of major and minor not as separate things but part of the same resource.

Why does it work? As a total nerd, I have an explanation (that also describes why altered scales work), but why is it important to know to make music?

Also, I don't know if this matters at all in regard to your analysis, but in Donna Lee,
out of 4 occurrences not one is as presented in your example.

1. & 4. are displaced by two beats, so the lick is split btw 2 bars,
first part of the lick being beats 3 and 4 of V7,
second part being beats 1 and 2 of I7, resolving on the 3rd beat, if that's resolving at all, since the chord is dominant?

2. is more similar to your example, but it's played over V7 resolving not to I, but to I7, ie. dominant, if that is resolving at all?

3. is the most similar as it resolves to IM7 (as implied by I in your example) but it does not resolve from V7b9, but rather from plain V7.
Actually I think originally the first chord is also dominant, only they turned it Maj by brute force, to provide "proper" resolution point, as well as to obscure *** see below ***.
If the chord was V7b9, it would be more to the "minor" explanation, but it is not, it is V7.

IMO, You should not mention Donna Lee, or you should use something else as example.

You might be right - TBH I wasn't thinking about the rhythm. It's just this melodic figure popped into my head as an example. I use it all the time.

Basically V7 is V7b9 if I want. Again, by modal interchange. If you want to play bebop, that's an important realisation.

Also I wrote the chord symbol so I could have made it V7b9 if I'd wanted to. The harmonic context for this change originally is VI7b9 II7 as I was thinking of it, but it pops up as you say in a few different contexts.

Also, IMO, all above analysis, including mine, is pretty much overly wordily way to say ***blues***.

Was Bach a blues man then?;-)

[Vladan]

The use of Modal Interchange - in this case the use of parallel minor chords in the major key is so common as to be completely unremarkable.

Since it's so common, it's likely the way it was done.

While you are in a sense correct to say ... , also bear in mind that this line works beautifully in C minor ...

I'd appreciate if you'd mention that other sense where I'd be not correct to say what I've said?!
Also, bear in mind, while this line, as you wrote it, may work beautifully in C min it is not in C minor, but is in C major.

Basically bar 1 is a minor ii-V lick. That allows a lot more flexibility than thinking 'major with alterations' because you can use a minor lick in a minor context, and if you understand relative minor/the Barry Harris thing I posted above, you can use major ii-V stuff on minor. Which is good because I am LAZY.

Basically, it is not minor ii-V lick and there's not a single reason for one way of thinking to be more flexible than another.

Why does it work? As a total nerd, I have an explanation (that also describes why altered scales work), but why is it important to know to make music?

Then why do you bother to write and explain that much?

Was Bach a blues man then?;-)

Was Bach the one who'd put Donna Lee together?

[princeplanet]

Hey Bobby, I recently checked out your "ACE" concept, which is kinda related, so I wanted to throw it in the mix.

To summarise this concept:


F#-7b5 = A Melodic Minor = E Penta b6 (E-F#-G#-B-C) - 1 2 4 b5 7

B7alt = C Melodic Minor = G Penta b6 (G-A-B-D-Eb) - 1 b3 3 b13 b7

E- = E Melodic Minor = B Penta b6 (B-C#-D#-F#-G) - 2 b3 5 6 #7


..... so the same pitch group (pentatonic) works against all chords in a 2 - 5 - 1 in minor.



My own spin on this is a little different:

-use a m7b5 arp and add either a "4th" or "6th" to create a 5 note scale.

-Against 2 - 5 - 1 in a minor key , play either 5 note scale



from Root of ii - m7b5 - 1 b3 b5 13 b7... or.... 1 b3 4 b5 b7


from b7 of V - V7b9b13 - b9 3 5 b13 b7... or... b9 b3 3 b13 b7


from 6th of i - m6 - 1 b3 b5 5 6.... or.... 1 2 b3 5 6


OK, so to relate it to the OP, lets do away with the iim7b5 and the i6 chords and check out my 2 "pentatonics" against the V chords. They essentially they can be viewed as a m7b5 arp with an extra note, but one of them lacks a 5th.

Let's check out the first one closer again- b9 3 5 b13 b7 - but lets see it as a dim7 or rootless V7b9 arp with an added b13.

See, this is where it gets interesting for me, because if we do the same thing for all the other non chord tones available we get the same dim7arp with 8 different possible added 5 notes.

So: b9 3 5 b7 plus R, or nat9, or #9, or 11, or #11, or b13, or nat 13, or #7.

Now every one of these pentatonics will work over a basic V7b9 chord, in either a minor or major key, although most will agree that the #7 version is one you could probably live without

Where as you divide the V alt world into 2 camps- HW dim, or Alt scale, I also divide my V alt world into 2 camps, the "under" vs the "over".
If we add our 5th note a semitone under each chord tone in our dim7 arp, we get either a V7b9 with a R, #9, #11 or 13th respectively.

That's most of the food groups right there, however it's missing a biggie, the b13. Naturally we pick this up when we add the remaining 4 notes" over" each by a semitone, one at a time to get V7b9 with nat 9, nat 11, b13 and #7.

Here's where some might disagree, but I find that as soon as I invoke a tension from the first group (#9, #11 or 13th), then when I want to fill out a line with more notes I'll add notes from the HW dim scale- not so much as in a serial "scale", more like enclosing the odd note so I land mostly chord tones on down beats with the odd tension here and there. I have "routines" for this in every position that work well for me (so far...). The cool thing about these devices. patterns etc are that they take advantage of m3rd symmetry. Invent an idea that invokes the #9 in one position, shift it up 3 frets and suddenly you invoke the the #11 (obviously all the other notes are still part of V7b9).

The second group (nat 9, nat 11, b13 and #7) however can't be handled the same way, unfortunately, because the pesky #7 will keep turning up. To avoid it I've had to work out different devices in each position where I'll add what ever notes sound good in between whichever pent I'm thinking of. For example, If I'm thinking to add a nat 9 to V7b9, then one device I have throws in R 13 #9 #11 as either neighbours, approaches or enclosures. So as you see I'm mixing it up a bit, but really just inserting chromatic links to give me some "bop".

I know that one can go very deep with Alt Dom concepts, but I find that having a b9 along with another chosen tension always sounds strong, and the above "method" gives me more than enough to handle most situations. OK, I use a whole tone scale when theres a #5 called (as opposed to b13), but other than that, I don't feel like I'm missing out by not using the Alt scale the way others might. If I need the b9, #9 and b13 I'll use a m7b5(11) from the b7 degree of the Dom chord (so Fm7b5-11 against G7b9). I find favouring 5 notes over 7 or more helps bring out the "flavour" of the desired tension you're adding. If your pulling from the same pool of Alt scale notes all the time, it can sound too muddy, unless you're a true master .

I'd like to hear some thoughts, especially if some of you see gaps or holes in my thinking, maybe certain situations my system can't cover etc. For example, a piano player i know expressed concern about a nat 13 against V7b9 resolving to a minor tonic. Given that he plays the shit out of the piano, and loves his dim scales, I thought it odd that he sees even the HW scale a strange scale choice over V7b9 in a minor key! What do you guys think?

As for the Alt scale, not ready quite yet to shake off it's shackles,, but I'm getting pretty close!

[christianm77]

Since it's so common, it's likely the way it was done.



I'd appreciate if you'd mention that other sense where I'd be not correct to say what I've said?!
Also, bear in mind, while this line, as you wrote it, may work beautifully in C min it is not in C minor, but is in C major.



Basically, it is not minor ii-V lick and there's not a single reason for one way of thinking to be more flexible than another.



Then why do you bother to write and explain that much?



Was Bach the one who'd put Donna Lee together?

Vlad, you are a classic wind up artist... ;-)

[Vladan]

Vlad, you are a classic wind up artist... ;-)

That being said, on many occasions when I play something in C, like good ole' Twist scheme, guess jazzers would call that vi ii V I, although it starts on I, but whatever, especially while on chord G (V) I find my self in the 8th position, playing something within blues pentatonic box, which is more less C minor, only I don't think of it as playing in C minor, but as of a way to play on G in C

[christianm77]

That being said, on many occasions when I play something in C, like good ole' Twist scheme, guess jazzers would call that vi ii V I, although it starts on I, but whatever, especially while on chord G (V) I find my self in the 8th position, playing something within blues pentatonic box, which is more less C minor, only I don't think of it as playing in C minor, but as of a way to play on G in C

Just stick in B as a passing note whenever you like and your good to go.

(For some reason putting the natural seventh in a blues lick always makes me think of Lee Morgan.)

By the way as David Liebman points out - putting the minor blues scale on V7 is where V7#9 and V7#5 come from - V7 chords against blues melody. Check Ellington.

[christianm77]

Actually, I once went to comedy thing (no really) where one of the jokes was, why do guitarist call it a 7#9 when it's clearly dominant7b10.

Actually this makes a lot of sense from the point of view of blues. I guess the comedian hadn't heard of the Altered scale.

No this was an actual comedy show with a joke regarding enharmonic chord nomenclature. Girls were there. Guy writes for BBC radio. Seriously, I am not shitting you. They even found it funny.

I'm pretty certain it wasn't a strange dream cos I checked with my missus who was there.

[princeplanet]

b10 ! Yeah baby! I laughed too, but really, it's not even funny. I mean if there's no 3rd, then b10 often makes more sense, especially in "blue" note contexts...

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hal Leonard's "Incredible chord finder" (I think that was the title ) used "b10" if I recall correctly. I was always irritated that I couldn't find 7#9 until I finally made the connection. Of course, that was back in high school. Haven't looked at it in a long time.

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[Groyniad]

christian - despite being well into all this i get lost very near the beginning of your long first post. i can't be bothered to sort it out by thinking hard all by myself so -

what was charlie parker's favourite way of accessing the Vb9 sound?

(my guess would be - in Cmaj - by playing an Fm6 chord with a sharpened 7th/a melodic minor scale with its root on the 4th degree of C)

i need to hear the examples straight away to be able to follow the sentences with this stuff.

thanks!

[ragman1]

I'm not an expert at all, nor an academic, but, if I can say it, I've been playing this idea for years. BUT if I'm missing something would you tell me?* I wouldn't be surprised if I was.

Over, say, Am7 - D7 - (GM7) use Am - Cm for the b9 sound.

Over the relative minor also use the same thing (gives alt sound over B7):

F#m7b5 - B7b9 - (Em) use Am - Cm.

(It's very easy just to shift the 2m up a m3rd in any key).


NB: Those two minors should be melodic minors. The #6 notes (F# and A) are obviously correct.


*If you do comment will you keep it simple and not fill the page with dense technicalities, please? Thanks!