Diminished vs. Altered Scale

[christianm77]

I'm not an expert at all, nor an academic, but, if I can say it, I've been playing this idea for years. BUT if I'm missing something would you tell me?* I wouldn't be surprised if I was.

Over, say, Am7 - D7 - (GM7) use Am - Cm for the b9 sound.


Over the relative minor also use the same thing (gives alt sound over B7):

F#m7b5 - B7b9 - (Em) use Am - Cm.

(It's very easy just to shift the 2m up a m3rd in any key).


NB: Those two minors should be melodic minors. The #6 notes (F# and A) are obviously correct.


*If you do comment will you keep it simple and not fill the page with dense technicalities, please? Thanks!

Lol I'll do my best.

Definitely. What I think of as the Charlie Christian sub, I first noticed it with him but of course everyone uses it.

G major
Of course - you can go at this two ways. So, you can treat that Cm as a melodic minor, which sounds legit, despite the fact that scale nerd would moan about the F over the D7 chord.

Or - if we take the straightforward dominant scale, we think 'Cm F7' and use an F dominant. If you then raise the F to an F# on the D7(b9) In effect you would be playing G minor going into G major. So you would be getting:

Am7b5 D7b9 Gmaj7

There's no situation where this doesn't sound good. Often it's quite nice to put in a taste of this alongside the major sound.

This is what Parker tends to do.

Mentioning Harmonic Major in this context is a birching offence. :-)

Relative minor - I think you meant E minor?
Yeah that works great. Try C --> Cm --> Em, for instance. Or Am-Cm-Em as you say. Also sound great on G major. Both are very common progressions in standards that can be repurposed for playing ii-V-I's. Basically anything that goes back to I via some kind of cool chord is fair game. if you hear it.

In terms of scale and arpeggios, Cm(maj6) belongs also to the G7b9 minor dominant scale (i.e. E harmonic minor) misspelled as C D# G B, but you can also use a C melodic minor. As I say, there's only a couple of notes in it either way.


On a deeper level, we have the Am-Cm-Ebm-F#m connection.

[christianm77]

With a line like this, I think it makes sense to view it as harmonic content from actual and/or implied changes. It could be G7 to Fm to C, or G7 to Db7 to C, etc.

It can be viewed from either direction. I use both in my playing. But the fact that you can derive and associate arpeggios with scales gives you some interesting options. However, I would not recommend this to someone who wasn't comfortable outlining changes already.

I moved to scales because I was tired of thinking about #9 this b9 that. If you play them in thirds, you get all the arps you could possibly want.

Many bop lines are a mix of diatonic 3rds and steps with the alterations to key to fit the chords. Donna Lee is a case in point.

If you play the line over E7 to Am, you would be starting on the P5 of the E7. You could be outlining Bm7b5 to E7alt to Am, or E7b9 to Bb7 to Am, etc.

But, as far as h/w diminished vs altered is concerned, to me it is all about that 13th (natural vs flat)

Indeed, that's the characteristic note.

For altered it's the b5.

[Roberoo]

I moved to scales because I was tired of thinking about #9 this b9 that. I

I had to smile at that because all the previous scale based discussion was giving me a headache! :-) I am on my first coffee of the day though.

I have had the good (mis?) fortune of going through the chordal approach (my dad was a teacher) and the scale approach (college) and I use a hybrid of both but lean more on the chordal approach. I tend to play in a more traditional style though.

IMO with a dominant chord there are only a few extensions to play with. At core - and unchanging - are the tonic, the major third and the seventh. Change any of those and the dominant sound disappears. All the rest of the notes are a pool to draw from in order to colour the dominant: Ab, A#/Bb, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E. Of course, even F# can be deployed as a passing tone. How those notes are deployed are contextual i.e. where is the dominant going to, where is it coming from? Is the group heading "outside" or are we playing for the local Knights of Pythias tea and scone society and we don't want to upset their day?

I guess, as we all know, there are many ways to get at these sounds but thanks for the food for thought.

[ragman1]

One thing to point out - Cm over D7 is a nice sound, but it doesn't necessarily address the leading tone (F#)

Good point, although you'd have to use the F# at the beginning of the run otherwise it might double up over the GM7. Also, you may also have already used it over the Am7.

One "solution" would be to take it up another minor third:
Am on the Am7, and then break the D7 into two parts - Cm and Ebm.

That can work too, except an Ebm run doesn't resolve very well to GM7.

I've an aversion to forcing resolutions. When good, they tend to fall under the fingers quite neatly.

[ragman1]

I think you meant E minor?

I said Em.

[christianm77]

I had to smile at that because all the previous scale based discussion was giving me a headache! :-) I am on my first coffee of the day though.

I have had the good (mis?) fortune of going through the chordal approach (my dad was a teacher) and the scale approach (college) and I use a hybrid of both but lean more on the chordal approach. I tend to play in a more traditional style though.

IMO with a dominant chord there are only a few extensions to play with. At core - and unchanging - are the tonic, the major third and the seventh. Change any of those and the dominant sound disappears. All the rest of the notes are a pool to draw from in order to colour the dominant: Ab, A#/Bb, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E. Of course, even F# can be deployed as a passing tone. How those notes are deployed are contextual i.e. where is the dominant going to, where is it coming from? Is the group heading "outside" or are we playing for the local Knights of Pythias tea and scone society and we don't want to upset their day?

Funny thing is I could express as arpeggios:

F F#o7 C/G say:
over
Dm7 G7 C

And no-one would notice. Literally no-one would think it was outside. The Knights of Pythias would not pause in their ...whatever it that they do.... It's a good solid mainstream/swing move actually. Might sound a little tasty.

Why? Because there's a clear start and destination to the passing dissonance. It's not the dissonance you use, it's how you use it.

If you were to freeze that F#o7 G7 sound on its own, it would sound bad. But the point is that this sound is NOT used in that context. By freezing something in time to examine the sound in isolation, you are changing the musical meaning of the sound.

People get too hung up the vertical aspect for changes playing IMO - it's the horizontal aspect which is actually important. Transcription of the masters has confirmed this again and again.

[christianm77]

That can work too, except an Ebm run doesn't resolve very well to GM7.

Eh? That's a strong statement.

[christianm77]

There's a good mix of common tones and different notes in the two scales

Eb F Gb Ab Bb C D
E F# G A B C D

Also

Ebm-->Em (sub for G)

Never had a problem with it. Makes for a very efficient cadence.

BTW, speaking of chromatic triads, if you aren't squeamish about the F#, check out this sub based on the tritone (Naima)

D7 Gmaj7 becomes

Ab/E F#/E Gmaj7

Sideslips are super common in modern/contemporary jazz, but I can't help but think of a nice early version with Django at the end of his solo on Exactly Like You.

Hours of fun.

[christianm77]

I remember reading a theory of cadences that basically said the more efficient a resolution is, the more half steps it has resolving up and down.

So a V7-I has the two semitones in a major scale move in contrary motion

7-->1
4-->3

If we have a 7b9 chord using borrowed minor we have three:

7-->1
4-->3
b6-->5

And so on.

We can see the V altered scale as the extension of this to almost all chromatic notes resolving to the I6 chord.... So in C

G altered - G Ab Bb B Db Eb F

We have...

Db-->C
F-->E
Eb-->E
Ab-->G
Bb-->A
B-->C

This is the most efficiency we can have while keeping the skeleton of the G7 chord in place (G B F) - contrary motion on the 1 and 3 as well, nice...

In my strange mind, adding in the remaining chromatic (F#) makes them more efficient still..... SUPERALTERED!

This can be achieved via the tritone sub

Db7 scale - Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb B

PANCHROMATIC CADENCES BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

This is basically the concept of this video, BTW, which work very nicely on the guitar...

Although contrary motion is big and clever also.

[matt.guitarteacher]

That can work too, except an Ebm run doesn't resolve very well to GM7.

How does it not?

Edit: Never mind. Missed all the other responses. Anyway, Eb melodic minor is basic vanilla jazz for resolving to G. Spent a lot of time recently with Eb minor(Maj 7) and Gb Maj7#5 resolutions on this, and they're great, at least to newbies like me.

Those chords would be better spelled as as D altered voicings of course...

[ragman1]

You're all against me! Arrgh!

You're all quite right, of course. It's just D alt, innit? What was I thinking? :-)

[Larry Feldman]

Enjoyed the article. Like the way you compared and contrasted the 2 scales. Thank you very much.

[princeplanet]

Hey Bobby, I recently checked out your "ACE" concept, which is kinda related, so I wanted to throw it in the mix.

To summarise this concept:


F#-7b5 = A Melodic Minor = E Penta b6 (E-F#-G#-B-C) - 1 2 4 b5 7

B7alt = C Melodic Minor = G Penta b6 (G-A-B-D-Eb) - 1 b3 3 b13 b7

E- = E Melodic Minor = B Penta b6 (B-C#-D#-F#-G) - 2 b3 5 6 #7


..... so the same pitch group (pentatonic) works against all chords in a 2 - 5 - 1 in minor.



My own spin on this is a little different:

-use a m7b5 arp and add either a "4th" or "6th" to create a 5 note scale.

-Against 2 - 5 - 1 in a minor key , play either 5 note scale



from Root of ii - m7b5 - 1 b3 b5 13 b7... or.... 1 b3 4 b5 b7


from b7 of V - V7b9b13 - b9 3 5 b13 b7... or... b9 b3 3 b13 b7


from 6th of i - m6 - 1 b3 b5 5 6.... or.... 1 2 b3 5 6


OK, so to relate it to the OP, lets do away with the iim7b5 and the i6 chords and check out my 2 "pentatonics" against the V chords. They essentially they can be viewed as a m7b5 arp with an extra note, but one of them lacks a 5th.

Let's check out the first one closer again- b9 3 5 b13 b7 - but lets see it as a dim7 or rootless V7b9 arp with an added b13.

See, this is where it gets interesting for me, because if we do the same thing for all the other non chord tones available we get the same dim7arp with 8 different possible added 5 notes.

So: b9 3 5 b7 plus R, or nat9, or #9, or 11, or #11, or b13, or nat 13, or #7.

Now every one of these pentatonics will work over a basic V7b9 chord, in either a minor or major key, although most will agree that the #7 version is one you could probably live without

Where as you divide the V alt world into 2 camps- HW dim, or Alt scale, I also divide my V alt world into 2 camps, the "under" vs the "over".
If we add our 5th note a semitone under each chord tone in our dim7 arp, we get either a V7b9 with a R, #9, #11 or 13th respectively.

That's most of the food groups right there, however it's missing a biggie, the b13. Naturally we pick this up when we add the remaining 4 notes" over" each by a semitone, one at a time to get V7b9 with nat 9, nat 11, b13 and #7.

Here's where some might disagree, but I find that as soon as I invoke a tension from the first group (#9, #11 or 13th), then when I want to fill out a line with more notes I'll add notes from the HW dim scale- not so much as in a serial "scale", more like enclosing the odd note so I land mostly chord tones on down beats with the odd tension here and there. I have "routines" for this in every position that work well for me (so far...). The cool thing about these devices. patterns etc are that they take advantage of m3rd symmetry. Invent an idea that invokes the #9 in one position, shift it up 3 frets and suddenly you invoke the the #11 (obviously all the other notes are still part of V7b9).

The second group (nat 9, nat 11, b13 and #7) however can't be handled the same way, unfortunately, because the pesky #7 will keep turning up. To avoid it I've had to work out different devices in each position where I'll add what ever notes sound good in between whichever pent I'm thinking of. For example, If I'm thinking to add a nat 9 to V7b9, then one device I have throws in R 13 #9 #11 as either neighbours, approaches or enclosures. So as you see I'm mixing it up a bit, but really just inserting chromatic links to give me some "bop".

I know that one can go very deep with Alt Dom concepts, but I find that having a b9 along with another chosen tension always sounds strong, and the above "method" gives me more than enough to handle most situations. OK, I use a whole tone scale when theres a #5 called (as opposed to b13), but other than that, I don't feel like I'm missing out by not using the Alt scale the way others might. If I need the b9, #9 and b13 I'll use a m7b5(11) from the b7 degree of the Dom chord (so Fm7b5-11 against G7b9). I find favouring 5 notes over 7 or more helps bring out the "flavour" of the desired tension you're adding. If your pulling from the same pool of Alt scale notes all the time, it can sound too muddy, unless you're a true master .

I'd like to hear some thoughts, especially if some of you see gaps or holes in my thinking, maybe certain situations my system can't cover etc. For example, a piano player i know expressed concern about a nat 13 against V7b9 resolving to a minor tonic. Given that he plays the shit out of the piano, and loves his dim scales, I thought it odd that he sees even the HW scale a strange scale choice over V7b9 in a minor key! What do you guys think?

As for the Alt scale, not ready quite yet to shake off it's shackles,, but I'm getting pretty close!

Been doing further listening and testing. Would be great if someone tried this as well before they comment, this is about playing the P5th against an Alt chord:

Take G7alt into C6 (or maj7). A bar or two of each. Play from this Pentatonic for the V chord: Ab B D Eb F . Just mess with it till the sound of it gets in your head, resolving it into the C chord every time.

Now lower the D to Db, so : Ab B Db Eb F. This is the Db Dominant Pentatonic, so its the TT sub pent for G7. Mess with that for a while. It's helpful if you have some backing (I use BIAB) so you can hear the difference.

So what's the difference you hear? First example contains the 5th against a chord that has an altered 5th. The second example provides both the b5 as well as #5 (b13). To my ear, they both sound OK, I can't say I prefer one over the other. Although when add chromatic notes where I can to both scales in order to "bebop-ize" them, I think I prefer the 1st scale.

This is interesting because it seems a lot of players avoid the 5th over an alt chord as a given, without really testing to see why. Kinda like avoiding the 13th against an alt chord in a minor key, you're not "supposed" to play certain notes in certain contexts (4 against maj ?), yet when I test these "avoid" notes, I often conclude that such rules seem wrong to me.... How about you guys?

[Vladan]

I will try your example later, but I'm pretty sure impressions can change on daily bases.
The other example you mention, the ubiquitous 4 over M7, sometimes I don't care, sometimes I do. Today I just could not stand it, not even as a passing note, no matter how hard I tried.

VladanMovies BlogSpot

[Vladan]

Nobody of knowledgeable to answer princeplanet's question?! Maybe they are afraid somebody will steal their ideas, if they showed/ told us what they really play?

Anyway, I tried, bit of noodling some riffs ...
They both go. As I understand what Alt chord is, D is for more drama, or more exotic, hermetic, because it is out of underlying chord, but is inside overall key. Db gives an more open sound over chord, but still "out" of expected in given key.
I could use them both and together.


Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

[princeplanet]

Cheers Vladan, interesting to hear your thoughts. I concur!

[matt.guitarteacher]

I would imagine it depends. Are other players implying more than just the flat 13? On guitar , we tend to think of only voicing 5th OR b13. For practical purposes, the way most of us voice things on the instrument, b13 and #5 may as well be the same thing , but that's an instrumental limitation.

7#5 can imply harmonic minor, or different modes of melodic minor. Reg always talked about the option of keeping things purposefully ambiguous. Anything can work over dominant with the right harmonic or melodic rhythm etc., and I don't think that ONLY refers to note LENGTH. I don't think you're going to get a definitive "yes" or "no" on this. Probably more of a "it depends". It depends, first of all, what is meant by "over altered". In a sense, sharp five isn't "altered". Not yet. Not if that's the only information. But it CAN be or MAY be.

Of course, I am talking completely out my arse and am not really a player. I will gladly accept any rebuttal.

It all works if you're playing by yourself melodically, and it all works if you're playing a simple 7#5 voicing as guitarists play it.

[christianm77]

IMO an accompanist should keep it simple unless they know for sure the sounds you like. That way you are free to make these decisions for yourself.