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There are also different levels of what's being talked about there. At a certain level, if the changes are interesting or slightly more varied, it's much easier to play something which sounds decent by basically just making the changes. Whereas, if it's only one chord for multiple bars, it's actually "harder" to play something compelling.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
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01-05-2017 12:30 PM
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Well the aim with changes IMO is to get it so that you can be as rhythmically free on changes as you would just jamming on the dorian mode say.
You could say the same about the harmony too. After all, many bop progressions can be abstracted modally at the highest level. Players can outline harmony on modes.
I mean in early jazz tunes you often get 8 bars of a major chord or a dominant or something. Bop changes are a way of adding more functional movement into a progression (there are swing ways of doing it too.)
Compare the iRealB changes to the A section of Dinah, say, to what I'd play on a trad gig:
| F | % | % | % |
| C7 | % | F | (C7) |
Actually, I would play these, exactly, but that's what I'd be thinking of. Also in the Barry Harris analysis, that's what you would be using as a template.
iRealB - obvious jazz college bebop subs:
Fmaj7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | Fmaj7 Bbmaj7 | F/A Dm7 |
| Gm7 | C7 | F6 Abo7 | Gm7 C7 |
By the way I don't like these subs very much - but they are an example of that kind of thing.
Now a modern player could totally modal on this (provided the rhythm section were playing that way too) but by the same token, you can see how bop changes an be applied to big empty stretches of one chord. The same logic can be used on, for example, Little Sunflower.
It's not done very often because Dinah doesn't tend to be played by modern (post-bop) jazz musicians that much. But there's no reason why it couldn't be. Here's what Miles and Trane did to Sweet Sue:
The form is the same, but the A section harmony has featured some serious modal interchange - but it's still only two chords. Here is a '30s version to give you an idea if you don't know the song:
There are many ways of decorating - modal subs, modal interchanges, use of superpositions, even specific types of swing era movement.Last edited by christianm77; 01-05-2017 at 12:39 PM.
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So, to the OP, yes modal awareness can be important to post Bop players, some of which may even apply "modalism" to Bop harmony. BUT, this is an advanced form of playing, which has little to do with the CST-For-Beginners application of "this mode for that chord".
Like everyone is saying, embellishing chord tones (diatonically and chromatically) is entry level prep for Bop awareness. If you've spent the last 10 years practicing scales and modes, you've been on the wrong path. Don't feel bad, I think a lot of us can relate....
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I agree. CST for beginners is a terrible idea. Especially for guitar players. Works better on piano. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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All too true. Someone could start a new record label, and call it the Jazz Heroin All Stars, and it would have a LOT of great names on it. Started making a list one time...too depressing. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Whereas "Horse" was a game where everybody imitated Bird's worst habit.... (sorry, being a smartass
)
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I agree , I spent a fair bit of time doing my modes , as you do , Abersold etc etc Originally Posted by princeplanet
I would concentrate more on GTL's
I mean on this kinda progression
|Dmin |G7 |Gmin |F |
playing the modes of each chord , won't get you making the changes , well sometimes by luck !
I've found yeah knowing the arps well yes , is good
but also , for me knowing the Guide Tone Line movement is crucial
eg the notes ...
|C |B |Bb |A |
is where the juice is at
I mean if you make those notes on beat one of each bar there
you can play almost anything in between and sound cool
For me Modes is for Modal tunes , floating , impressionistic stuff where you're not making the changes
Proviso , you need to practice the stuff you can't do naturally to become more complete
so you don't get thrown and lost on the bandstand so much
This is the stuff I've needed to strengthen in my ears ,
you may be different , but being able to hear and nail changes
gives a great feeling of freedom on the bandstand
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@ goldenwave77
Jazz Heroin All Stars? Yeah, why not, after all, they had the Harlem Globetrotters, right? So how about the Jazz version : the Harlem Straightshooters, or the Harlem Mainliners...
All shitty jokes aside, it was astonishing that the world's greatest ever art form was performed at it's peak by mainly black people (many in NYC) addicted to heroin. All the junkies I've ever known would struggle to memorise the rules to Monopoly...
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I don't get ya. Stan Getz, Art Pepper, Red Rodney, Chet Baker, Gerry Mulligan, Zoot Sims, Serge Chaloff, Paul Desmond, Bill Evans...all rode the White Horse too.
It was a BIG club...open to all.Last edited by goldenwave77; 01-05-2017 at 01:58 PM.
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Let me guess, Bert Ligon, right? Great stuff, but again, it's still training wheels. The "Connecting Game" works equally well but gives you more variations to work from. Once these are under the fingers (talkin' years!), then we can find our own way from there... Originally Posted by pingu
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Yup. They copied the greats before or as they became great themselves. Tragically learning the wrong lessons. Originally Posted by goldenwave77
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Oh that's right, around 1% of them were white! Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Last edited by princeplanet; 01-05-2017 at 02:01 PM.
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But maybe because of that, were PERHAPS disproportionately recorded and got more of the gigs. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Oh that's right, around 1% of them where white!
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IMO, there"s nothing wrong with modes and CST. What is wrong are teachers not understanding what they teach, or deliberately prolonging teaching period to squize out more money of their students.
Of course, there is the 3rd option ...
Nothing wrong with either modes, CST, or teachers.
Fact is, while being educated on modes and CST in a way that makes some teachers look bad, quite a number of students managed to rise up to very high levels musicaly and instrument specific, level most of players, teachers and preachers from this forum can only dream about. How could it be, if the education was wrong? Nothing is wrong. Those are tallented people.
There should be some system to tell the weed from the crops, or whatever the appropriate idiom is.
Like in school. Most of the class is "Uh, why are they molesting us with this, we'll never need it in our lives?", but still there are couple of straigt A pupils, ending in science, government and institutions. Out of the rest, some manage to hustle, some do not.
Trend is now in playing games and spoonfeeding. Some see their chance in it. Hope they will excell. IMO, tough luck
If you have it, you have it either way.
It's easy to tear something appart and see what is inside. Much harder is to put it back together, even harder to put something together from pieces you are not familliar with, the hardest is to create something meaningful from scratch. Still, some people can do it, no sweat. The most will never manage.
We are not equal and should not be, except in our right to be different.
VladanMovies BlogSpot
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True, there are some very smart kids out there playing what some people call "Maths Jazz". But once upon a time cats were not only whip smart, but cool as fuck to boot.... It's the attitude I'm missing, personally, and there's no teaching that at Bezerklee... Originally Posted by Vladan
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I think it would be a much shorter list if it were all the players that didn't use. Originally Posted by goldenwave77
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Now people are going to college to learn to play like many who were high school dropouts. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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hehe... Originally Posted by mrcee
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Henry, Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Me too. Actually I tend to view things in a similar way to your earlier posts too. This is when playing over changes. Playing off of the chord tones in which the scale tones fall in between. Extensions, alt notes, chromatic fragments, and even enclosures are part of the tool kit. The only time I shift my thinking is when I play Martino style 16ths, or chromatic style 32nd, which leads to a more modal approach over tunes with no resolving turnarounds. Imrpressions come to mind. Or structured tunes where there are 6 2 5 1, etc, but, one doesn't use the standard chord tone turnaround, but forces the chromatic modal structures over them ( as one would force a blues scale over bop changes). So I follow the changes.....Or create lines that float on top the changes, but do not relate to them diatonically.
All I can think of is a track where I play Martino style 16th and work in more and more 32nd chromatic flourishes. The 32nd notes are my answer to the sax, and the instrument's ability to play long, flowing unbroken 32nd notes. This is not really easy on guitar. The limits of the instrument make it problematic. I couldn't do it, so I came up with a chromatic concept where I could.
This track is a head over Impressions/So What changes. I was going to call it 'too many notes', but I settled on calling it Inception, a good half dozen years before the movie used the name.....
This chomatic technique (mostly during trades and at the end) are like the wall of sound idea, only that concept is built on diatonic chord tones, scales and utilizing sweeps. Very hard to do. My concept is strict alternate picking, constant position shifts and acts like a flourish of the string section in an orchestral score. (I guess).
Modes and beyond....
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Desmond? Loved his Dewars and maybe a little coke in the 70's, but heroin? Originally Posted by goldenwave77
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Just say no, kids....
to CST... :-D
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Yes, I believe so. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Don't let the nerd glasses fool you. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The use of H (I know the lingo too), was spread pretty deep. As I have mentioned here, I played a duo with Joe Albany way back when, after his lengthy incarceration for junk. He also had undergone a brain operation and there was a big scoop taken out of one side of his forehead. It was a bit surreal, as he was a mess. Sat on my couch one night getting high, and singing the whifenpoof song, tears running down his cheeks as he relived the night Charlie Parker fired him for being too high on the gig, yet again.
I have probably mentioned Joe's little crying fit before. It is one of those weird events in life that sticks in my memory. It certainly was bouncing around inside Joe Albany's head, as he was not over getting fired by Bird some 30 years before. (Bird went to the funny farm at Camarillo, and Joe to jail not long after Joe got his walking papers)
I was not a full on straight ahead jazz guy back then. I knew just enough to get in trouble, however when I played with Joe, I played on the tunes l could handle, and just laid out on the crazy bop tunes he played at 'tempo de tear ass'. The lesson there was instead of playing a bunch of clams, lay out. If you have nothing to say, say nothing. Have pity on your audience, your fellow band mates, and ultimately yourself. Silence is golden.
Sigh. If my couch in Hollywood during the mid 80s could speak, what tales it could tell. Joe's crying jag. Jason Scheff was bunking on my couch between gigs and a place to live just before he got the call to replace Peter Cetera in Chicago. Wild. He was bummed that he didn't get the gig he auditioned for earlier that week at Crystal Studios with the Crusaders. If he was crying about that, Chicago certainly put a smile on his face.
Ok. Sorry. It's OT. And... I am sure my stories are getting worn out, but us old guys in our rocking chairs have to tell stories. That's all we have left.
"Hey! Wheel me down to the pond, nursey, I want to feed the ducks"... Creak creak....Last edited by docdosco; 01-05-2017 at 06:16 PM.
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Interesting. I read Ramsey''s book about Paul years ago, and it didn't seem to gloss over stuff much.
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My motto is "When in doubt, lay out". Originally Posted by docdosco
Time for me to go feed the ducks. I've already given all the flies around the house names.
Let's take a poll on whether Desmond was a dope fiend. I'm saying no and am going with the Dewars and ciggies.
Hey, and nice playing Doc.Last edited by mrcee; 01-05-2017 at 03:58 PM.
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I always get the feeling when it comes to CST discussions , that there's this basic notion of "what scale can I play over this chord?" being the fundamental idea of it. The whole notion is messed up whether you're pro or con.
First, if you think it's really that simple in playing jazz , you're misguided. But at the same time, if you're on the other side, you can't use that silly question ITSELF to explain away why CST "doesn't work". The fact that you still need to understand things like basic language, melodic devices or phrasing in the style doesn't change the other very real fact....that this way of organizing pitches is very helpful to some players who otherwise have all those things together and understand how to use that knowledge.
Sure, there are plenty of great players who claim to know nothing about theory, at least in terms of what things are called, or modes/scales etc., but there are also plenty of other great players who are conversant about the way they organize chromatic/outside pitches and how they outline chords in harmony and melody, even when playing very functional, non-modal, Western music.
I agree that it's not the place START, but these kind of conversations often take on a tone of superstition around the "mysticism" of music. "It worked for Wes" is cool if it works for YOU. It's probably also helpful if you have Wes's ears, fingers, talent and time on the instrument.
I would point to a lot of reg's videos as examples of applying CST to functional playing in a pretty non-modal sounding way. It's more of an organizing structure for approaching chromatics. Typically doesn't sound super outside in most of what he has shared here. He keeps most of it pretty straightforward , at least in terms of clearly outlining the basic harmony.
But it's not simply one scale over one chord either. Again, you have to have some basic phrasing, harmonic/melodic rhythm concepts together as well.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-05-2017 at 04:03 PM.
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