On the fence with Modes, not sure I am getting it.

**PB+J** · 12-23-2016, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

I think this might be my new favorite explanation of bop. Bravo... bravo.

Thank you! I love swing cliches, and I love bebop, and i love modal playing, it's all good, but they come out of differrent moments and speak to different needs

**Jonah** · 12-23-2016, 04:18 AM

I like introductory approach that my teacher used for beginners (or not beginners - even advanced players who got perplexed or stuck in theoretical mode concepts), and I also saw Peter Bernstein do it in one of the videos...

You play a chord
You get every chord tone securely
then you try to fill in spaces between chord tones, find notes that fit the chord sound in a way (as tension resolution, passing tones - no matter... the thing is that you hear a chord sound and then you play arpeggio with notes in between chord tones - and you feel the same sound.. and you do it just by ear, relying only on your hearing...
It is possible that you may find a few different solutions that will sound relevant to the chord but have a little different characters.
At this moment you don't specifically think about mode names.. you just listen and hear.
Then you try to experiment with lines... you take basic chord tones and choose one extra note from the 'scales' you managed to elaborate this way... and try to mix it in different phrasing and so on.

this approach is pretty slow... but very effective musically. You just do a little thing that really gets you inside music as hearing process.

If you do that with one tune, or even a few simple changes... after that you will look at all the theoretical knowledge you have from another perspective.

NB It is not technical excersise, it is purely musical excersise... you do not even have to immediately systemize ity and apply to any key etc. Just do it for this very chord right now...
Later you will see that it penetrates gradually any thing you play

**christianm77** · 12-23-2016, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by PB+J

I'll just add my two cents, speaking as a historian who gigs a lot. Bebop was not about modes; it was about ironic revision of familiar tunes. It was all about making "back home again in indiana" alien to itself. It's interesting but frustrating to play, because it's a little like being in a cage and pacing furiously: i'm going here, then there, here comes the tonic, do it again faster, walk in this way to the far end of the cage, here comes the tonic."

Modes were about escaping that cage and the relentless logic of the tonic. For rockers, they offered a way to "play jazz" without learning how to navigate chord changes.

to play bebop, think like this: there are all these pop tunes and white guys get all the better paying gigs and there's a lot of really corny swing that anybody can play by ear. And you're sitting in front of a bandstand and the leader is pretending to conduct and waving a baton and here comes your solo, eight measures of swing licks. You want to take a tune the corny bands play and make it do stuff they never imagined: you want to take those stale changes and make them contain tricky stuff the corny guys can't play, but it's still the same changes, so they know how thoroughly clueless they are. It's all about staying in the frame of the chord changes, and kicking their ass. I say this loving bebop.

modes were about breaking the bebop revenge cycle and stepping outside the frame. Not having to be confined by two chords a bar till you worked your way back to the tonic.

Bebop revenge cycle! Haha.

No that's a very good post.

I just wanted to say that rhythmic phrasing is really the big difference. The harmony, at least of Charlie Parker, is not very different to swing era players. But his phrases - oh man! Like you say a caged tiger straining at the bars.

The great and true challenge with bop, IMO, is achieving the rhythmic freedom you can get on a vamp through changes like Indiana, Rhythm, Cherokee, Honeysuckle etc. These changes aren't in fact terribly difficult (cony, even, as you say), but it's still not easy, and no one has done it as well as Parker.

It has elements of a game, too.

I don't think I agree with your history of bop though, entirely... There is an element of that, absolutely. But there's more to it too. Bebop is also the evolution of the Kansas city swing pioneered by Bennie Moten... Parker was completely inside the tradition before he changed it. But bop grew naturally out of the after hours jam culture.

Also (and I know you didn't mean it this way) describing the greatest of the swing players (Django, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Art Tatum etc etc) as 'playing swing licks' is of course completely laughable. But yes, there were many lick players.

Some players were able to take a small amount of material or 'licks' and vary them endlessly (Charlie Christian)

One thing that died somewhat with the bop era was the tradition of improvising on the melody - some of the most creative jazz musicians of the 20s and 30s were playing hugely advanced rhythmic variations on the tune of the song - you could think of Billie Holiday that way. Jazz became about running the changes, although I don't think that's what Bird was doing, exactly.

**NSJ** · 12-23-2016, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

One thing that died somewhat with the bop era was the tradition of improvising on the melody - some of the most creative jazz musicians of the 20s and 30s were playing hugely advanced rhythmic variations on the tune of the song - you could think of Billie Holiday that way. Jazz became about running the changes, although I don't think that's what Bird was doing, exactly.

I think it was Lou Donaldson who made the contentious comment (paraphrasing here from memory):

"Bird always played the song; you could always hear the song in his lines; Sonny Stitt? He forgot about the song and just ran his stupid harmonics (i.e, playing the changes). "

For me, Bird was Next Level Pres.

**pingu** · 12-23-2016, 09:22 AM

There's some real wisdom on this thread ...

Thanks guys

**pingu** · 12-23-2016, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

I think this might be my new favorite explanation of bop. Bravo... bravo.

Me too !

**rabbit** · 12-23-2016, 03:34 PM

Just a little question here. Express yourselves, please.

What recording do you consider to be "Bop's #1 Greatest Hit?"

**henryrobinett** · 12-23-2016, 03:47 PM

Ko Ko.

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**RyanM** · 12-23-2016, 03:53 PM

To me, modes are just a synonym for the fully extended chord. I can't really switch between thinking about the chord or the scale, they are the same thing.

**PB+J** · 12-23-2016, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by rabbit

Just a little question here. Express yourselves, please.

What recording do you consider to be "Bop's #1 Greatest Hit?"

KoKo
Donna Lee
Oleo

**MarkRhodes** · 12-23-2016, 05:18 PM

**henryrobinett** · 12-23-2016, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by RyanM

To me, modes are just a synonym for the fully extended chord. I can't really switch between thinking about the chord or the scale, they are the same thing.

Not for me. Only if you fully apply the chord structure within the scale. When I play or think about the fully extended chord I see it arpeggiated and tend to alter the upper partials anyway so it really does sound like the chord rather than the scale its associated with. But you know, that's just me.

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**Vladan** · 12-24-2016, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

And, then some chord/scale theory helps when somebody puts a chart I've never seen in front of me, with strange looking harmony that I can't sound out in my mind, and I have to solo on it 30 seconds

Don't buy into that crap. You have to know the tune, or be familliar with generic progression, or you won't be able to play it.
Some people read good enough to pass without trying out, but even they have to glance through beforehand.
Playing 100% unknown piece from 100% cold is a myth. It's rather logicaly impossible, too. As soon as it starts, you are making connections to previous knowledge, playing what you think/ know/ think you know will sound good.

The game is in good ear, solid technique,
comprehensive vocabulary, memory and experience, which all are the thing of previous preparation. Amassed, in application, they can give an impression of instant and spontaneus, but the truth is very far from that impression.

VladanMovies BlogSpot

**mrcee** · 12-24-2016, 08:20 AM

If you're talking about a HIT as in a song that a lot of people know or listen to frequently or based on how many plays it gets, I would say Tunisia or Salt Peanuts, even if they're not necessarily the best or most representative of the genre. Hits are synonymous with popularity with a wide range of listeners, not just musicians. There's some tunes that are real dogs that were big hits although I wouldn't call Tunisia or SP dogs by any means. Most jazz fans wouldn't consider Hello Dolly to be Louis Armstrong's best number (West End Blues maybe?) but it might have been his biggest hit after Wonderful World.

Hit single - Wikipedia

**goldenwave77** · 12-24-2016, 08:43 AM

Hot House

Grooving High

And I still think anyone trying to play bebop ought to first spend 20 minutes on a basketball court playing H-O-R-S-E.

**MarkRhodes** · 12-24-2016, 10:18 AM

I think this deserves mention:

**christianm77** · 12-24-2016, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by RyanM

To me, modes are just a synonym for the fully extended chord. I can't really switch between thinking about the chord or the scale, they are the same thing.

I did a video about that!

I call them scale-peggios (tm)

I find using the scale name a little more streamlined, and also bebop lines often have diatonic passing tones, so scales are handy

But scales in thirds are where melodies become a harmony

**Groyniad** · 01-05-2017, 11:09 AM

that was a great post on the nature of bebop

all i'd say is that its greatest exponent is no caged tiger but a very naughty angel in flight

there is a big difference

keeping ones wings - or finding them in the first place - whilst learning to play 2 chords per bar at 250, is some task

one had better not end up sounding like a caged anything

(but i don't like 'modes' as a way of avoiding the feeling of containment)

**destinytot** · 01-05-2017, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by PB+J

.... ironic revision of familiar tunes.

....

to play bebop, think like this: there are all these pop tunes and white guys get all the better paying gigs and there's a lot of really corny swing that anybody can play by ear. And you're sitting in front of a bandstand and the leader is pretending to conduct and waving a baton and here comes your solo, eight measures of swing licks. You want to take a tune the corny bands play and make it do stuff they never imagined: you want to take those stale changes and make them contain tricky stuff the corny guys can't play, but it's still the same changes, so they know how thoroughly clueless they are. It's all about staying in the frame of the chord changes, and kicking their ass.

Excellent.

**destinytot** · 01-05-2017, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by rabbit

Just a little question here. Express yourselves, please.

What recording do you consider to be "Bop's #1 Greatest Hit?"

That's a tough one, but 2m50 to 4m15 has stood the test of time (they had me completely at "Ninety-nine guys got eyes for Liza, but Liza's got eyes for me!"):

and Dizzy's 'drum' intro:

**princeplanet** · 01-05-2017, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

I think it was Lou Donaldson who made the contentious comment (paraphrasing here from memory):

"Bird always played the song; you could always hear the song in his lines; Sonny Stitt? He forgot about the song and just ran his stupid harmonics (i.e, playing the changes). "

For me, Bird was Next Level Pres.

I think Lou was a little jealous because Stitt was perhaps the more developed Bird disciple of the two...

**princeplanet** · 01-05-2017, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by goldenwave77

Hot House

Grooving High

And I still think anyone trying to play bebop ought to first spend 20 minutes on a basketball court playing H-O-R-S-E.

I thought they did horse behind the court

**goldenwave77** · 01-05-2017, 12:10 PM

H-O-R-S-E is a game of imitative shot-making on the basketball court. I go, and attempt a shot of whatever form...legal or illegal...backwards, scoops, behind the back through the legs, dribbling...whatever you want. If I make the shot, you have to match me...in some variations, if you match me, it's your turn, in others, I keep the turn.

If you don't match me, you get a letter...first one to HORSE, loses.

So, all in all...a kind of "can you top (match) this". Not too different from old time cutting contests.

**princeplanet** · 01-05-2017, 12:14 PM

A couple of threads seemed to infer that modal playing is simpler playing. While that is obviously true for most of our collective experience when comparing the skill it takes to jam on a Dorian Vamp as opposed to addressing 2 chord per bar at 300bpm (i.e. high level Bop), it is worth remembering that there is also such a thing as high level Modal playing.

There is a Universe of difference between Carlos Santana and John Coltrane....

**princeplanet** · 01-05-2017, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by goldenwave77

H-O-R-S-E is a game of imitative shot-making on the basketball court. I go, and attempt a shot of whatever form...legal or illegal...backwards, scoops, behind the back through the legs, dribbling...whatever you want. If I make the shot, you have to match me...in some variations, if you match me, it's your turn, in others, I keep the turn.

If you don't match me, you get a letter...first one to HORSE, loses.

So, all in all...a kind of "can you top (match) this". Not too different from old time cutting contests.

Whereas "Horse" was a game where everybody imitated Bird's worst habit.... (sorry, being a smartass

)