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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Thank you! I love swing cliches, and I love bebop, and i love modal playing, it's all good, but they come out of differrent moments and speak to different needs
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12-23-2016 12:29 AM
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I like introductory approach that my teacher used for beginners (or not beginners - even advanced players who got perplexed or stuck in theoretical mode concepts), and I also saw Peter Bernstein do it in one of the videos...
You play a chord
You get every chord tone securely
then you try to fill in spaces between chord tones, find notes that fit the chord sound in a way (as tension resolution, passing tones - no matter... the thing is that you hear a chord sound and then you play arpeggio with notes in between chord tones - and you feel the same sound.. and you do it just by ear, relying only on your hearing...
It is possible that you may find a few different solutions that will sound relevant to the chord but have a little different characters.
At this moment you don't specifically think about mode names.. you just listen and hear.
Then you try to experiment with lines... you take basic chord tones and choose one extra note from the 'scales' you managed to elaborate this way... and try to mix it in different phrasing and so on.
this approach is pretty slow... but very effective musically. You just do a little thing that really gets you inside music as hearing process.
If you do that with one tune, or even a few simple changes... after that you will look at all the theoretical knowledge you have from another perspective.
NB It is not technical excersise, it is purely musical excersise... you do not even have to immediately systemize ity and apply to any key etc. Just do it for this very chord right now...
Later you will see that it penetrates gradually any thing you playLast edited by Jonah; 12-23-2016 at 04:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by PB+J
No that's a very good post.
I just wanted to say that rhythmic phrasing is really the big difference. The harmony, at least of Charlie Parker, is not very different to swing era players. But his phrases - oh man! Like you say a caged tiger straining at the bars.
The great and true challenge with bop, IMO, is achieving the rhythmic freedom you can get on a vamp through changes like Indiana, Rhythm, Cherokee, Honeysuckle etc. These changes aren't in fact terribly difficult (cony, even, as you say), but it's still not easy, and no one has done it as well as Parker.
It has elements of a game, too.
I don't think I agree with your history of bop though, entirely... There is an element of that, absolutely. But there's more to it too. Bebop is also the evolution of the Kansas city swing pioneered by Bennie Moten... Parker was completely inside the tradition before he changed it. But bop grew naturally out of the after hours jam culture.
Also (and I know you didn't mean it this way) describing the greatest of the swing players (Django, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Art Tatum etc etc) as 'playing swing licks' is of course completely laughable. But yes, there were many lick players.
Some players were able to take a small amount of material or 'licks' and vary them endlessly (Charlie Christian)
One thing that died somewhat with the bop era was the tradition of improvising on the melody - some of the most creative jazz musicians of the 20s and 30s were playing hugely advanced rhythmic variations on the tune of the song - you could think of Billie Holiday that way. Jazz became about running the changes, although I don't think that's what Bird was doing, exactly.Last edited by christianm77; 12-23-2016 at 07:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
"Bird always played the song; you could always hear the song in his lines; Sonny Stitt? He forgot about the song and just ran his stupid harmonics (i.e, playing the changes). "
For me, Bird was Next Level Pres.
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There's some real wisdom on this thread ...
Thanks guys
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Just a little question here. Express yourselves, please.
What recording do you consider to be "Bop's #1 Greatest Hit?"
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Ko Ko.
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To me, modes are just a synonym for the fully extended chord. I can't really switch between thinking about the chord or the scale, they are the same thing.
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Originally Posted by rabbit
KoKo
Donna Lee
Oleo
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Originally Posted by RyanM
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Some people read good enough to pass without trying out, but even they have to glance through beforehand.
Playing 100% unknown piece from 100% cold is a myth. It's rather logicaly impossible, too. As soon as it starts, you are making connections to previous knowledge, playing what you think/ know/ think you know will sound good.
The game is in good ear, solid technique,
comprehensive vocabulary, memory and experience, which all are the thing of previous preparation. Amassed, in application, they can give an impression of instant and spontaneus, but the truth is very far from that impression.
VladanMovies BlogSpotLast edited by Vladan; 12-24-2016 at 07:04 AM.
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If you're talking about a HIT as in a song that a lot of people know or listen to frequently or based on how many plays it gets, I would say Tunisia or Salt Peanuts, even if they're not necessarily the best or most representative of the genre. Hits are synonymous with popularity with a wide range of listeners, not just musicians. There's some tunes that are real dogs that were big hits although I wouldn't call Tunisia or SP dogs by any means. Most jazz fans wouldn't consider Hello Dolly to be Louis Armstrong's best number (West End Blues maybe?) but it might have been his biggest hit after Wonderful World.
Hit single - Wikipedia
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Hot House
Grooving High
And I still think anyone trying to play bebop ought to first spend 20 minutes on a basketball court playing H-O-R-S-E.
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I think this deserves mention:
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Originally Posted by RyanM
I call them scale-peggios (tm)
I find using the scale name a little more streamlined, and also bebop lines often have diatonic passing tones, so scales are handy
But scales in thirds are where melodies become a harmony
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that was a great post on the nature of bebop
all i'd say is that its greatest exponent is no caged tiger but a very naughty angel in flight
there is a big difference
keeping ones wings - or finding them in the first place - whilst learning to play 2 chords per bar at 250, is some task
one had better not end up sounding like a caged anything
(but i don't like 'modes' as a way of avoiding the feeling of containment)
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Originally Posted by PB+J
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Originally Posted by rabbit
and Dizzy's 'drum' intro:
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Originally Posted by NSJ
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Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Last edited by princeplanet; 01-05-2017 at 12:15 PM.
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H-O-R-S-E is a game of imitative shot-making on the basketball court. I go, and attempt a shot of whatever form...legal or illegal...backwards, scoops, behind the back through the legs, dribbling...whatever you want. If I make the shot, you have to match me...in some variations, if you match me, it's your turn, in others, I keep the turn.
If you don't match me, you get a letter...first one to HORSE, loses.
So, all in all...a kind of "can you top (match) this". Not too different from old time cutting contests.
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A couple of threads seemed to infer that modal playing is simpler playing. While that is obviously true for most of our collective experience when comparing the skill it takes to jam on a Dorian Vamp as opposed to addressing 2 chord per bar at 300bpm (i.e. high level Bop), it is worth remembering that there is also such a thing as high level Modal playing.
There is a Universe of difference between Carlos Santana and John Coltrane....
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Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Thomastik Jazz BeBop 12 set - $10.
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