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I'm an oldie (66) but still a jazz improv novice. When you are constructing a solo, either on the spot or thought out before hand, who is your audience: your audience or your self? After all is said and done, after all the woodshedding with all your various techniques (scales, arpeggios, enclosures, 1235 runs, etc, etc), are you more or less forgetting those things and then just doing what "comes naturally" (assuming that many of those things have been burned into your muscle memory)? Or are you trying to do things to "wow" your audience (whether it's in a club or in your living room) with trying to make sure you throw in all kinds of cool stuff? Or are you "just playing" what you feel in the moment? By the way, and I don't think it matters for the question, I'm an acoustic nylon string crossover player mostly these days.
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11-05-2016 11:40 AM
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I see playing a jazz solo a lot like trying to pick up a beautiful woman in public. If you're showing off and acting flashy because you think it will impress her, she'll often see through it. Cheesy pick up lines usually just make you seem cheesy and desperate. I find it best just to say hello, be genuine and honest, and do my best to get her to do most of the talking... and then I listen and pay close attention.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I love this analogy. Very helpful.
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I've been with the same woman for 21 years, so when I play improvise I am mostly forget the theory (which I work on 90% of the time) and go with what feels right to me at the moment.
Wait.... What?... Oooooh, now I understand what my wife has been complaining about! Yeah, that listening part. That's probably a good idea. :lol:
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It's always for me. And it isnt. It just so happens that making a group sound good and entertaining people are two things that make me happiest.
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People have different reasons for making music. I make music primarily for creative fulfillment. I also like the social aspects -- sharing a creative effort with other musicians and (lastly) engaging with an appreciative audience. When I have a performance coming up, I'll consider all three factors when preparing the set list. On the bandstand I'll engage with the audience between tunes, but when actually playing my focus is on making myself and my bandmates happy. If I succeed at that, I think the audience will be pleased as well. (If not, F*** 'em!
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When I'm performing I try to be driven by what I want to hear and responding to my bandmates. Ideally, I'd like to have the freedom to play like a singer -- to know what you want to hear and effortlessly belt it out. That's more complicated on a guitar of course, which is why we must woodshed harmony and melody and learn the tunes. My playing is always at it's best when I've done enough woodshedding to be able to focus my attention on what I'm hearing and what I want to hear. I'll just think about harmony and scales enough to help me navigate around the fretboard to find what I want to play. This more of a dream than reality at this point in my development, but it's what I strive for.
Also, I'm much more interested in music that has a heart than speed. It's possible to have both of course, but if I must sacrifice one or the other I'd sacrifice speed. Make each note count.Last edited by KirkP; 11-05-2016 at 01:41 PM.
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I'm always trying to wow, erm, myself!
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For me, music is about self-expression. Jazz in particular. So have ALWAYS tried to play who I am. I also write who I am. I try not to have any considerations for attempting to create a solo or music that I THINK people would like. But I've tried also to cultivate my taste. The two should not be mutually exclusive.
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I think of it in conversational terms. What do I have to say at this moment? If I'm talking to my friends and I want to suggest that, say, we go somewhere, I'd be more likely to say, "Hey, let's go back to my place and watch the game" rather than, "Gentlemen, at this hour, mayhap we shall repair to my domicile whereupon we might view the local chaps engaged in their sporting event." I MIGHT say the latter if I were doing it for humorous effect, but as a serious statement it's going to come off as pompous. I sort of see that as making a direct melodic statement as opposed to using every flashy lick I've got.
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sup? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Hey Jordan! I was thinking about you! Doing OK. How about YOU?
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Jazz musicians might be unique in weighing self-expression against entertainment.
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And classical composers or just corner case rock guys. It's something that happened en mass with bop musicians, I think. Then more with the jazz and modal jazz. For me, Mingus saying he considered himself a journalist. It just seemed worthwhile to play myself. And the goal of "reaching people" by second guessing what they'd want to buy, be that come to dance to your band or buy your 45s seemed to cheapen the experience of being an artist for me. It didn't, but it did for me. Originally Posted by Stevebol
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The OP wasn't really asking if entertainment was an important factor in jazz. He asked specifically about constructing solos, and whether it's better to try to play something flashy in an attempt to impress the audience or to play something that pleases yourself (and your bandmates). If that's the choice, I'd always go with the latter. My favorite musicians are capable of burning the house down, but only do that when the music calls for it.
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80% of guitarists at jam sessions are "showing off".
0% of the posters here will admit that they ever do the same.
(and yeah, 27% of statistics are made up)...
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Kirk. Yeah, I got that, but I think it's two sides of the same coin. Sure I flash to impress. But really I'm trying to impress myself, hoping that it will impress someone else. And that's the mechanics of entertainment.
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Glad to hear you're well. I'm great, thanks. Finished chemo and radiation. Still on meds and have lots of PT to do and follow up tests to make sure things stay where they are and don't relapse. But slowly getting back into real life again. And slooooooooowly getting my chops and playing back again as well. Hitting it pretty hard just about every day. So I'm starting to see some movement again. Feels good. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
PM me if you want to talk more so we don't pull this thread off the tracks.
But yeah..
I vote "for yourself"... and then given as a gift to "others". But first I want to make it the most beautiful and valuable gift I can make it. And my only gauge for beauty and value can come from what I personally and subjectively am moved by. While flash might grab my attention momentarily for a "wow, that's neat" type of comment... it generally doesn't hold my attention very long or hit me in my soul. That's ultimately what I want. So that's ultimately what I try and offer.
But everyone has to travel their own path. No right or wrong.
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No, no!!! Only my path is valid and correct!!! Lol.
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Good question I'll give you my straight up answer. I play in public a lot BTW, both for listening and 'less listening' audiences. Originally Posted by larryb
As soon as I think of this stuff I'm screwed.
I have to eliminate these thoughts from my head.
RE: flash, everything feels really slow to me on stage, things that take a split second seem to go on forever. Sometimes I listen back to myself on recordings and I am actually surprised at some of the speeds I am playing at, but as soon as I think 'ooh I'll play something fast to impress the laydeez' my fingers stop working.
I try to just imagine whatever phrase I'm going to play in my head as loud as I can, and keep my technique relaxed. I'm also trying to listen to what the overall sound of the band is.
On a good night I sort of 'wake up' at the end of the solo. Quite often I 'wake up' several times during, but it's getting better.Last edited by christianm77; 11-06-2016 at 03:30 PM.
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That's a terribly interesting point. Originally Posted by Stevebol
I think some classical musicians have a similar dilemma - composers for example. Perhaps it's an 'art music' thing.
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I'll admit to showing off. But I've learned that it rarely goes well. Once I start thinking about how others are perceiving it, I forget that I'm supposed to be saying something, and end up doing the musical equivalent of shouting nonsense. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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I have a different thought than many of you based on my experiences as a listener. I have been to many Jazz and Blues concerts where true improvisation is occurring.
I can still remember moments in which the artist might look at the audience with a wink and put in a quote from a popular song or two. I still remember the smiles in elicited.
So if you are performing, I would think this would be a bit of a shared endeavor. One in which the artist thinks, "We are in this together, and I am willing to give a little if you are."
Like I said, I have never performed for an audience so take this with a grain of salt.
I would think an artist would be not only looking for self-fulfillment of expressing themselves, but also for a connection with those listening.
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Yeah, OK, there's a bit of showmanship there, and nothing wrong with that. But the fact there is that the soloist is actually saying something. It might be a joke. Humor is a valid thing to express. But he wasn't just blowing a fast flurry of notes with the idea of getting people thinking, "wow that guy plays really fast". Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Joe, Originally Posted by Boston Joe
That is what I was trying to get at.
At times, especially at Blues shows (Andrew Jr. Boy Jones, Guitar Shorty, Buddy Guy are examples that quickly come to mind) all of these guys had points in there solos in which they would let loose a fast run, and then would look up at the audience with a smile, maybe say some funny comment.
This does not happen nearly as often with the Jazz guitarists, however. Maybe with some Jazz audiences, it is not appropriate. But with the more unsophisticated, down-home Jazz audiences I have been around, it seems they love for you to kind of prick them with a nice long, flashy line.
At least for me, it lets me know the artist is thinking about me, which endears him to me. Kind of like a good preacher.
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What's the jazz version (is there one) of:
“Anyone who uses more than two chords is just showing off.”― Woody Guthrie
?
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