Using less "musical" enclosures

**matt.guitarteacher** · 11-01-2016, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Another extremely common enclosure is found when dealing with minor dominants with a scale. The enclosure of the third is on an E7b9 in the key of C is A G G# - nothing unusual - but the alteration of the key to get the G# of the E7b9 is made with the enclosure, if that makes any sense. This ties in with the Barry Harris stuff on how to play a minor ii-V.

Yeah I have heard some really high falutin explanations of Lydian #2 and how the altered tone is more "stable" etc. etc. I've always just heard it as a chromatic lower neighbor of the third. Of course, that feature then "gives you access to" melodic minor at a broader level as well. :-)

Basic enclosure patterns are their own organizational feature in jazz. They explain a lot which is otherwise needlessly complex- sounding , especially in the beginning.

**christianm77** · 11-01-2016, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Yeah I have heard some really high falutin explanations of Lydian #2 and how the altered tone is more "stable" etc. etc. I've always just heard it as a chromatic lower neighbor of the third. Of course, that feature then "gives you access to" melodic minor at a broader level as well. :-)

Good grief do they? Well, as they say there's a fine line between clever and stupid.

(BTW I don't like the sound of Locrian #2 for m7b5's. I don't hear the b2 avoid note, and I don't hear bop era players 'avoiding' it)

They probably think that bar 5 of Confirmation is evoking the half-whole scale, when in fact it's a blues lick.

I'm not saying that one way of understanding is better than the other - well actually I am. Why make things so frickin' complicated?

The simplest understanding of any phenomena is the best.

**55bar** · 11-01-2016, 07:09 AM

I've been trying to apply these concepts over RC

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**christianm77** · 11-01-2016, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by 55bar

I've been trying to apply these concepts over RC

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey man, that sounds legit!

**grahambop** · 11-01-2016, 08:46 AM

Blimey I don't ever make it that complicated! I just play upper, lower, target, or lower, upper, target, as I see fit. Either way seems to work in bop if you put it in the right place in the line.

As to the exact notes, I am guided by my ears rather than which note in the scale they are.

But I got all this stuff by ear anyway, by listening to the records, not out of books. Not saying that's good or bad, it's just the way that seemed natural to me.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-01-2016, 10:06 AM

Well, this is again where the rhythm and phrasing comes in.

I've seen quite a few people attempting to quantify and teach these rhtyhmic concepts here lately--a valiant effort I think as it's such an important topic, but your ears are either going to hear it or not. The only way to "get it" in my opinion is hours and hours and years of listening to jazz playing.

**Boston Joe** · 11-01-2016, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

They probably think that bar 5 of Confirmation is evoking the half-whole scale, when in fact it's a blues lick.

I've always heard it as a blues lick. I hear blues licks all over the place in Bird's playing. He was from KC after all.

**christianm77** · 11-01-2016, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, this is again where the rhythm and phrasing comes in.

I've seen quite a few people attempting to quantify and teach these rhtyhmic concepts here lately--a valiant effort I think as it's such an important topic, but your ears are either going to hear it or not.

Oh god, really? How depressing. It's just as well I think you are wrong.;-)

There is a feedback loop between playing and listening. Listening alone is not enough.

Most of us are a bit educationally disadvantaged on the rhythmic side. There are ways to that - drumming and dancing are time honoured ways.

But the first thing, I find, is that people often don't listen to or feel this music rhythmically. They hear pitches first and foremost, and that's the way they improvise.

You can remedy this be getting them to improvise rhythmically - on one note, give them a rhythmic vocabulary. Get them playing simple hand drum patterns and so on.

The second thing, is over involvement with the rhythm when they do feel it - rushing. Trying to 'swing.' etc

My ears hear a lot more than they did a few years back, the way I perceive swing feels now is completely different to the way it was 5 years ago, and much of this is down to work on rhythm.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-01-2016, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Oh god, really? How depressing. It's just as well I think you are wrong.;-)

There is a feedback loop between playing and listening. Listening alone is not enough.

Most of us are a bit educationally disadvantaged on the rhythmic side. There are ways to that - drumming and dancing are time honoured ways.
.

It's cool, I disagree with you.

Drumming and dancing are a fine start. But they only illustrate concepts. In order to transfer it to the guitar/horn/keys, it has to be internalized.

Many great rhythmic musicians I know aren't good dancers, because they spent all their time on the internal drumbeat.

**christianm77** · 11-01-2016, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's cool, I disagree with you.

Drumming and dancing are a fine start. But they only illustrate concepts. In order to transfer it to the guitar/horn/keys, it has to be internalized.

Many great rhythmic musicians I know aren't good dancers, because they spent all their time on the internal drumbeat.

I think dancing to illustrate a concept might be a little more modern than I was thinking. I was just thinking of salsa or something.

Seriously who dances to illustrate a concept?

I don't really dance, but I get a lot out of drumming. I should do it more. It's fun, and that's an important part of it, the physical side, the enjoyment, instead of getting all nerdy and worried about my time like I used to. Rhythm is an adventure, an art form.

Anyway, so you agree it is possible to improve your rhythmic sense through practicing? Or perhaps more accurately, get in touch with it better.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-01-2016, 12:17 PM

Yes and no.

I have a lot of respect for drummers and dancers. To the point of where I think just dabbling to "improve my rhythm" is just like the shred guys who say "I should learn a little jazz because it will really help my metal playing..."

But dance is an element for me--playing dance music. I can't dance for nothing...actually, I haven't even tried it much because I'm so awkward...but I've played a LOT of music that people are meant to dance to. And that's what I get complements on...my groove. And not much else. But that's important so I'll take it

And that has helped me more with rhythm than anything. Playing with really good bassists and drummers. And to a point, I really do think you can't teach it. I had to fall on my face a few times, and then I learned to listen to how a good bassist in a funk band or whatever locks in with the kicks drum...and I realized that's only one thing you can lock in with...

It's crazy though, as modern jazz isn't dance music...but the same concept applies.

**wzpgsr** · 11-01-2016, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop

Why is a particular enclosure "less musical"?

I wasn't sure how to phrase that. For some reason, to my ear, approaching a chord tone from a half-step below, even if the approach note is non-diatonic, almost always sounds good. Musical? I am not sure what the right word to use it, but you don't have to work too hard to approach a chord tone from below and make it sound "right." Same with diatonic approaches from above. Whether a half step (as in the case of 4 to 3) or a whole step (2 to 1), diatonic approaches from above sound "right" or "good" or "musical." Combining the diatonic above with a half-step below also sounds good. For me, it gets more challenging to enclose a chord tone with two non-diatonic chromatic approaches--for example, approaching the 1 from a half-step above and below--and make it sound good.

I think Mr. Beaumont hit the nail on the head with his comments regarding tempo, phrasing, etc. At faster tempos, or in faster triplets at slower tempos, the non-diatonic approaches fit in a bit better, at least to my ears. They also seem to work for me if I play them across the bar when the chords change to get a little cluster of leapfrogging chromatic tones around the guide tones.

My question came about because I was wondering how often players use these non-diatonic approaches in actual jazz practice. Just because an enclosure is mathematically possible doesn't necessarily mean it can be/should be/has been used in bebop, or that a lot of time should be spent practicing it. That said, taking some of the advice on the thread, last night I was able to come up with some lines that sounded alright using one or more of these non-diatonic chromatic enclosures.

**Boston Joe** · 11-01-2016, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I had to fall on my face a few times, and then I learned to listen to how a good bassist in a funk band or whatever locks in with the kicks drum...and I realized that's only one thing you can lock in with...

There's a great online bass teacher by the name of Scott Devine (scottsbasslessons.com). He has a whole series of videos on groove construction, and in the very first lesson, he says straight out, "Groove has nothing to do with notes." The first few lessons he only plays one note and only talks about rhythm.

**Boston Joe** · 11-01-2016, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

My question came about because I was wondering how often players use these non-diatonic approaches in actual jazz practice.

I've never really had a problem using either diatonic or chromatic approaches from either direction. They all sound good to me. Obviously, a lot depends on the context, but I think if you listen to a lot of music, you'll hear plenty of all of them.

**grahambop** · 11-01-2016, 05:47 PM

Chet Baker uses a chromatic enclosure (upper then lower) around the root at the end of his intro here to Bud Powell's 'Tempus Fugit':

**NSJ** · 11-01-2016, 06:46 PM

I got to talk to Kreisberg s bit when he was in town for his master classes at the Old Town School.

He was adamant you have to feel the groove away from the instrument especially polyrhythms I.e. Feel in in your person by internalizing it by tapping it on your lap Fully before playing it on your instrument .

I tend to agree . It's helped me a lot on the instrument

**KirkP** · 11-06-2016, 02:43 PM

I attended a clinic by Mordy Ferber focused on how to improvise or embellish melodies by applying chromatic and scale-based enclosures to arpeggios. I may not be describing it quite right, but it's the general idea. I found it quite helpful. I think it was based on the following DVD, but I don't have a copy of it. Maybe someone who has seen the DVD can comment.

Mordy Ferber-Make the Tune Your Best Friend
Amazon.com: Mel Bay presents Mordy Ferber-Make the Tune Your Best Friend: Mordy Ferber: Movies & TV

**rintincop** · 11-11-2016, 09:58 PM

Bebop need not be overly complicated. Bud Powell, Parker and Bill Evans went most often for this double neighbor scheme (you can look at other combinations as variants or extrapolation of of this timeless classic)

Rule:

The upper NT in key . then lower chromatic NT, then target note.

Bach liked it that way too...

Then there is the Triple Enclosure...

**christianm77** · 11-12-2016, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by rintincop

Bebop need not be overly complicated. Bud Powell, Parker and Bill Evans went most often for this double neighbor scheme (you can look at other combinations as variants or extrapolation of of this timeless classic)

Rule:

The upper NT in key . then lower chromatic NT, then target note.

Bach liked it that way too...

Then there is the Triple Enclosure...

That's how I had it pegged too.

Also no need to leave Mozart out;-)