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How about some tips for when you're in a situation, perhaps a duo or trio, where you're the only comping/chordal instrument.
For example, I'm playing a gig monday in a trio with bass, sax and myself. We had a quick rehearsal, and when I go to solo, there's only the bass holding it down. What can I do to fill the space? Obviously, I need less single line playing and need to work in chords. But does anyone have a "system" of thought they use to do just that?
Only thing I was able to do in rehearsal, was play a chord every handful of measures, which seemed to keep things together more. And then sometimes playing upper extensions of the chord we're on and maybe surrounding chords in the same key. For example, if the chord were Cmaj7, I would hit it and then maybe quick stabs of dm7 and/or em7.
What else can I/we do in these situations?
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07-24-2009 08:39 AM
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Practice soloing by yourself with only a metronome in song form.
Then unaccompanied.
Play single notes and any manner of multi notes you want (2,3,4,5,6 notes).
When you can do this well then having a bass player will seem like playing in a big band.
You'll need a strong inner pulse, good skills with hearing the form, understanding of what the bass player is bringing to the table and comfort with space. There is great possibility for freedom and interaction in this instrumentation. Enjoy it.
Also check out as many guitar/bass duos as you can in addition to horn player trios with bass and drums. Good luck on your gig.
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Those are the best gigs. I played in duos and trios for years. Love those gigs, especially duos.
Plenty of room to stretch out and not worry about sombody playing natural 5's against your altered ones.
The one thing that most of us fear is silence. We immediately feel the urge to fill up that space with all kinds of stuff.
That's really the wrong approach.
However if your really concerned with fattening up the sound you can try harmonizing your solo with intervals. Or play the 7th and third everytime you land on one or the other so that your harmonizing certain notes in your run.
You could do the same with chords. play the chord with the melody note from your solo on beats 1 and 3. For this I would recommend subbing the chord (Cma7 use Emi7 or Ami7 or G, D etc.) Use triads.
Remember as long as the bass part holds up , you can do just about anything and get away with it. So the pressure is really on the bass player to support the soloist and not play wacky stuff that has everbody saying "huh?"
good Luck
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All good advice in this thread so far... Another easy thing you can do to "fill space" (or at least give the listener a better impression of the changes), is just to alternate between comping and soloing. Say you're playing a ii - V - I in C. You could play lines over Dmin7 and G7, but when you land on the C you could stick a big fat CMaj7 on the downbeat. It doesn't have to be as obvious as that. Like John said, there's a bassist there so feel free to use any kind of inversion you'd like. In fact, sometimes your chords don't even have to relate to the key center. You could play a tone cluster derived from the EMaj scale if you wanted. Freedom to do more or less as you please just goes with the territory for that kind of gig: bass + guitar = space.
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yes, all of the above, and please remember--not all space need be filled!
your homework assigment is to listen to grant green's "green street" and to check out the records chet baker made in the 70's with doug raney and niels henning orsted pedersen.
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Another HELL YEAH to the idea that space doesn't need to be filled. So many players are worried about quarter notes and eighth notes that they forget that there are also quarter note rests and eighth note rests. You play those rests properly and you may be on to something.
Also, you may want to keep your comping to a minimum so that when you do take a solo you won't perceive such an empty space. Don't bogart those chords, my friend.
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This is great advice guys, thanks.
Typically we play this gig in my regular trio format, which is: guitar, vibes, bass. So there is the vibes for comping when I go to solo. The vibes player is on vaca, so a sax player is filling in. With a sax instead of vibes, I just don't want a huge dropout when I go to solo. The gig is every other week at a restaurant during dinner time...it's been fun.
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I totally agree with the others, and have done this with a buddy who is a bassist. Totally different than other types of playing. I would also echo checking out discs where this is done. Some suggestions;
Jim Hall & Ron Carter-Alone Together
Joe Pass & NHOP - Chops
Jody Fisher & Jeff Stover - Live
This last one is available for $5 download from Jody's site. jodyfisher.com
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Yes, I have and love these two albums! Especially like any and all Pass/NHOP collaborations...the trio album Eximious comes to mind too.
Originally Posted by derek
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Well heck, you have all you need then! Originally Posted by martinopass
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Another consideration ... don't solo as much and don't solo on every tune (jazz heresy, I know). Let the bass player stretch out and make that sax player work his reed till it splinters. Most solid rhythm players know that they are dealing with many independent lines at once and not just playing chords.
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Just reporting back after the gig...
So I did a gig as a duo and one as a trio with sax. They both went well. I found the easiest thing to do was to alternate between comping and single line soloing every handful of measures. Also getting the 3rds & 7ths in there or higher extensions of the chords, as opposed to full chord stabs.
I think at times I might have played a little too much, but overall it worked out well as I didn't feel that "dropout" because so.
The vibes player in my trio is back from his vaca, so I'll be back to playing with another comping instrument for a while again. But it was a good experience and I'm sure something I'll get back to soon.
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I am in the same exact sit. I play with a bassist and only a bassist. Before, I was in a quintet, where there wasn't alot of stress, and I could lay out. Now, I've taken advice from a friend, who gigs in a trio with bass and drums. She solos alot with chords.
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How about a duo situation with just saxophone and guitar? I guess this isn't a great setup for an actual gig but my bro and I like to jam a lot and I end up just comping the whole time. It's even tougher than playing in a trio because I don't even have a bass player backing me up - that seems easy to me.
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I guess you're talking about "Daybreak" and "Someday my Prince will come", great great albums Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Cool, I also play sometimes is a trio with vibes, bass and guitar. I think JohnW400 has a strong point: don't be afraid of silence! But if your bass player is any good and just keeps on walking, then there won't be a lot of silence. I like to just play my single-note lines over only a bassline, it gives you much more freedom to play any alteration you want and lots of out-of scale runs. Maybe I play some more arpeggio-stuff to realy emphazise the chords and the progressions.
A little trick that works well in songs that have a lot of chords: I play the broken chords and add lots of 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, #11s, b5s. Mind you this is not arpeggio-playing, I play a full chord, preferably in a barré (so not the typical jazz-voicings) and pick the notes, while adding all the additions. This realy outlines the chord and the ear hears harmony, even while only playing single notes. Just play like that through the progression. Typically, you can do this after one or two chorusses single-note playing, thus adding some building up to your solo.
Making chordal-solos (à la Kenny Burrell and also Wes was great at this) is also great in duos or trios without a chordal instrument. This demands some more skill. Things to do there:
- know as much different forms and inversions from the same chord as possible so you can play them in a row thus creating lines
- use lots of chord substitution (for example for Cmaj7 play a line like Cmaj7- Dm7 - Em7 and back in nice rhytmic variations, in between you can even put C#dim and D#dim)
- use tri-tone subsitution, often you can then move 7th-chords chromatically up and down (over Am7 - D7 - Gm7 - C7 I like to play A7(13) - Ab7(13) - G7(13) - F#7(13), making rhythmic variations)
- alterate all the 7th cords with #11, #5 or b5 and play the different shaps on every beat or so
- for major: make lines with maj7 - maj6 - 6/9 combinations
- shifting chord shapes up and down a half step can also create nice lines. A typical Wes Montgomery trick is to take a dim-shape and move it up and down a half step first before moving it further to its first inversion, like this:
-4--3--4--------7-6-7-------9-8-9-----------
-3--2--3---/----6-5-6----/--8-7-8-----------
-4--3--4--------7-6-7-------9-8-9-----------
-3--2--3---/----6-5-7----/--8-7-8-----------
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A good way to practise chordal-soloing is to let the same note ring on top and find different fingerings for the same chord with or without alterations, with that same note on top all the time.Last edited by Little Jay; 08-11-2009 at 04:23 AM.
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The guy I studied with locally for a number of years plays duo with a sax player from time to time. He really likes it. I have yet to see them though. Clearly as the only chording instrument, you will spend much time doing just that. Still a cool combo. Originally Posted by seagullc
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Hi,
I play in a trio - Guitar, sax, bass so I am often in the same situation as you. This is what I do:
I try to introduce a little movement, very much along the lines of what others have suggested i.e. substituting a CMaj7, Dm7, Em7, Dm7 run for just playing C for 4 beats
OR
produce movement inside the chord I.E. C, CMaj7, C6, Cmaj7 to fill up the bar.
OR
use substitution so C /// Am /// Dm /// G /// could become
E7 /// A7 /// D7 /// G ///
Also I think it is important to thin out the chords during a chord solo. The way I see it the roots and 5ths stay the same for nearly all of the chords you will play so don't play them (Unless required as in a diminished or augmented). Let the bass cover the roots and fifths while you concentrate on bringing out the 3rds, 7ths, 9ths etc.
It may not be to everyone's taste but it works for me.
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I strongly second all those suggestions. But, I would add: you do NOT have to worry about filling every space. Silence is a 'fill' as well and a very important one. It gives space to the solo, like breathing. Things that are implied speak as loud or louder than those that are spelled out. Originally Posted by bako
Just keep that in mind...
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I saw an amazing demonstration of this the last week of July at jazz camp. Pat Metheny was doing a Master Class, and at the end of it he said he wanted to play something everyone would know, so he picked Autumn Leaves. He told of attending clinics where he would listen to players and everyone would blow without reference to the changes or melody.
So for a solid 10 minutes, he plays thru AL unaccompanied (had a metronome ap on his iphone thru the PA going to keep time) playing single lines, but the entire time you could hear the changes and melody. He stayed very diatonic at first and about 2/3 thru went out a little, but even then, you could hear the form. Was an eye opening experience to hear someone play without repeating ideas, and keep the melody and form so clearly.
Made me think of this question. Being able to solo like this would be a big benefit when you are the only polyphonic instrument.
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