The importance of learning sequences.

[Blinicat]

I started to learn jazz improvisation a year ago. Stuff I've been doing since then was basically sitting with my guitar, taking a standard and connecting chord tones on one position on the neck, then moving to another, then eventually when I felt like I'm ready, I'd try to solo over changes without trying to think about this stuff much. At this point I'm learning "Moment's Notice" and I'm taking the same approach, just looping every 4 bars, slowing down and connecting chord tones. Feels like it will take me forever to get any fluent at this, but I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with something different.
Even when I take some kind of funky vamp, like typical dorian C-7 F7 (and I've played a lot on those just for fun before I started to learn jazz standards) it feels like after a short time I'm repeating myself and not really coming up with something improvised. I feel like my vocabulary is evolving very slow. My question is if I should play scale sequences or chord sequences to fix this. You know, like taking C major scale and playing fourths for example, C - F, D - G, E - A etc. It just feels to me that stuff like this is like building blocks for improvisation and I don't practice it at all . My guitar teacher said "no, because that's not improvisation" but I really feel like that's the only way to improve it. Allan Holdsworth once said that improvisation is a subconcious release of everything you've ever learned. Please help.

[Badge]

I feel your pain! I can bebop improvise fiendishly in my head or voice. But the creativity tends to get blocked when I try it on an instrument.

Here's an idea:

First, get the major scale and the various arpeggios into your muscle memory.

Then, Try singing or humming a short improv phrase over a short chord progression. Using scale/ arpeggio fragments and variations on the melody. Keep it diatonic for now. That should be easy.

Then try to play it.

Then do it all again. Repeat.

The goal is to make the fretboard as natural/ intuitive as your voice.

[christianm77]

I really like that Holdsworth quote.

I practice intervallic scale patterns. It's then good to take them through progressions, but - this is not easy.

As you have only been learning for a year, I would say lay off Moment's Notice for a bit and master some simpler progressions such as Blues, Rhythm Changes, which have ',modules' that crop up all the time - I IV II V's, II V's I, I IVm I's and so on. Master these progressions in different keys and you will have a vocabulary of harmonic movements that will equip you to deal with a lot of repertoire you are likely to encounter.

Now what do you play on these progressions? I advocate chord tones and neighbours. If you want to use scales, you need to develop the ability to simplify or strip down progressions (or at least I do because I am thick) - so II V I becomes II I or V7alt I, say.

Hope that's of some help. There's a lot of work to be done here and a couple of paragraphs doesn't do justice.

[Guitarzen]

My question is if I should play scale sequences or chord sequences to fix this. You know, like taking C major scale and playing fourths for example, C - F, D - G, E - A etc. It just feels to me that stuff like this is like building blocks for improvisation and I don't practice it at all .

Yes sequences are very useful. If you listen to great improvisors you will hear a TON of sequencing being used. There are two basic ways I use sequencing - as a pretty straight intervallic pattern, this can be great as filler material. And the second way I use sequencing (more often than the first) is as a starting point and then I vary the pattern and try to make it more interesting by ornamenting it, altering it, inverting it, changing the intervals, make it more chromatic etc...tons of things you can do to it to make it sound less mathematical and more musical and creative.

My guitar teacher said "no, because that's not improvisation

I'll have to strongly disagree with your teacher. I may not be the all knowing authority on improvisation, but I have studied it pretty seriously for 26 years, and one thing I can say for sure: improvisation is merely the re-arranging of things you have practiced thousands of times. You are exactly right when you said those things are building blocks for improvisation. So whether your teacher meant "don't practice them" or "don't use them during an improvised solo", he would be wrong on both counts. I know for a fact I've heard great improvisors use straight up sequences hundreds if not thousands of times. The trick is you don't just run a bunch of pre-programmed sequences all the time -- you use them at just the right time and creatively as I alluded to above. I have serious doubts about your teacher's knowledge or abilities if he made a stupid comment like that. It shows a serious lack of depth of knowledge on the topic, and a lack of the kind of understanding that comes from a life time of studying the topic seriously. Well shit anyone who's been playing guitar for 5 years thinks they can set up shop as a guitar teacher. And anyone who can play the major scale and it's modes thinks they are an expert at jazz improvisation, it seems.

Allan Holdsworth once said that improvisation is a subconcious release of everything you've ever learned.

Yes, Mr. Holdsworth seems to agree with me. Everything you have learned, including sequences.

[princeplanet]

Nothing wrong with an improv style based upon sequences and patterns. Better of course if it's mixed with other devices as well as an ability to spin lyrical melodies on the fly, but these can be developed later... With sequences, one thing you won't find is a book of the "right" sequences to learn. Sure, you have the Coker book of patterns, but there are far too many, and clearly you will not require the mastery of them all, just a handful is all you need at the beginning.

So where to find them, or better yet, how to choose the ones to stick with? Aha! - See that is the 64 million dollar question right there! Pick patterns and sequences that don't inspire you, and it may be a waste of time, but choose ones that click and lead to other inspired pathways for more and more ideas and you could be well on your way.

The answer, for me at least, was to create patterns and sequences based on complex cells mostly which contain mixtures of chord tones and chromaticism. As little as 4 notes, as many as 32 notes. It could be a bit of language from a head or a solo, or something you dream up. Then create sequences out of these cells in ascending as well as descending form, in every position (I do it in 5, but am thinking of limiting it to 4- one for each 4 note chord inversion). Then create variations of these sequences, one for Major chords, one for Dorian/Dominant, and one for Alt/Dominant. I find these 3 groups cover most challenges Jazz throws at me.

I've spent years at it, and it's ongoing. Mixing up the patterns seamlessly and blending in non rehearsed melodies is a life's work, which is fine by me. The trick is to hide that you are using sequences by using short excerpts starting from any note/string, moving into other short excerpts, always landing or pivoting off target notes. Doing this in unbroken 8ths is challenging enough, but you need to then move beyond that to the point where you can interject gaps, triplets, intervallic leaps etc, all without losing the "flow". Easier said than done, right?

Before you go too deep, make sure this is a style that agrees with you. Who are you fave players? Are they using patterns or sequences? If not, then find out what they are using and spend years learning that instead! Remember there are as many different styles as there are players, and it's OK to ignore every style you don't really like....

[christianm77]

Nothing wrong with an improv style based upon sequences and patterns. Better of course if it's mixed with other devices as well as an ability to spin lyrical melodies on the fly, but these can be developed later... With sequences, one thing you won't find is a book of the "right" sequences to learn. Sure, you have the Coker book of patterns, but there are far too many, and clearly you will not require the mastery of them all, just a handful is all you need at the beginning.

So where to find them, or better yet, how to choose the ones to stick with? Aha! - See that is the 64 million dollar question right there! Pick patterns and sequences that don't inspire you, and it may be a waste of time, but choose ones that click and lead to other inspired pathways for more and more ideas and you could be well on your way.

The answer, for me at least, was to create patterns and sequences based on complex cells mostly which contain mixtures of chord tones and chromaticism. As little as 4 notes, as many as 32 notes. It could be a bit of language from a head or a solo, or something you dream up. Then create sequences out of these cells in ascending as well as descending form, in every position (I do it in 5, but am thinking of limiting it to 4- one for each 4 note chord inversion). Then create variations of these sequences, one for Major chords, one for Dorian/Dominant, and one for Alt/Dominant. I find these 3 groups cover most challenges Jazz throws at me.

I've spent years at it, and it's ongoing. Mixing up the patterns seamlessly and blending in non rehearsed melodies is a life's work, which is fine by me. The trick is to hide that you are using sequences by using short excerpts starting from any note/string, moving into other short excerpts, always landing or pivoting off target notes. Doing this in unbroken 8ths is challenging enough, but you need to then move beyond that to the point where you can interject gaps, triplets, intervallic leaps etc, all without losing the "flow". Easier said than done, right?

Before you go too deep, make sure this is a style that agrees with you. Who are you fave players? Are they using patterns or sequences? If not, then find out what they are using and spend years learning that instead! Remember there are as many different styles as there are players, and it's OK to ignore every style you don't really like....

This is broadly similar to what I do.

TBH, two big schools of jazz improvisation - the Tristano school and Barry Harris's school both make uses of scalar sequences, not to mention thousands of other players who use similar things.

There are other games in town, and I would say scales are hard to use unless you know what you are doing, which is why I would recommend a year or two of playing on chord tones and neighbour tones to get that framework sorted.

It's a lot of work. I still work on this stuff every day, and I've been playing jazz for 20 years.

[matt.guitarteacher]

There are other games in town, and I would say scales are hard to use unless you know what you are doing, which is why I would recommend a year or two of playing on chord tones and neighbour tones to get that framework sorted.

this. Scales and sequences are nearly useless until you have an ear for tension and release. That's what playing chord tones and neighbor tones teaches you. Largely teaches you an ear for Melody.

Probably more than anything else, it's the thing I wished I had learned from the beginning, once I started studying that way.

[emanresu]

Holdsworth is right imo.

I'm a hobbyist and not a pro jazz player at all so this advice is not backed up by anything.

Make time for technical stuff that can be practiced in fun, groovy and creative ways. Both scales&chord arps. AND harmonic intervals && triads, ... 7th chords.... all of it! edit: and sequences

Forget that you know that stuff.

Turn on some ear training app that bombards you with random stuff... let go... it takes many months to become the boss of anything that happens there.


now.
Learn the harmony of the tune by listening and humming to it. This can take days.

Improvise!

It sucks...

Continue! - its the final practice. Once you don't feel the "strain", once the feel of "practicing" is gone, you're golden.

the clingy feel must go or else..

[wolflen]

I really like that Holdsworth quote.

I practice intervallic scale patterns. It's then good to take them through progressions, but - this is not easy.

As you have only been learning for a year, I would say lay off Moment's Notice for a bit and master some simpler progressions such as Blues, Rhythm Changes, which have ',modules' that crop up all the time - I IV II V's, II V's I, I IVm I's and so on. Master these progressions in different keys and you will have a vocabulary of harmonic movements that will equip you to deal with a lot of repertoire you are likely to encounter.

Now what do you play on these progressions? I advocate chord tones and neighbours. If you want to use scales, you need to develop the ability to simplify or strip down progressions (or at least I do because I am thick) - so II V I becomes II I or V7alt I, say.

Hope that's of some help. There's a lot of work to be done here and a couple of paragraphs doesn't do justice.

and again..we try to describe the nature of improvisation..years ago I was in a small studio practicing a melodic progression..a friend stopped by..he was not a musician in any sense..he sat at a fender Rhodes..turned it on and hit a note and it fit in with what I was playing..and he hit another note and another and a few clusters..and it continued for several mins..now I realize he was just hitting random notes and they just happen to fit in with what I was playing..is that improvisation..

on the technique side of my studies I also study intervallic patterns..mixed with diminished and augmented scales and chord structures found within those scales..If I know a melody..play around it and insert some of those techniques..restate some of the melody perhaps in thirds or fifths and octaves .use chromatic runs to connect arpeggios etc..sometime I listen to a recording of something I have played..and I wonder..how in hell did I play that..

its the daily practice of new material that produces our growth..and using old material in new ways..that shows us how much we still don't know..

the greatest obstacle to learning is thinking you know it already..

[blille]

YMMV but I grew up in the school of "improvisation is really in the moment: learn your scales, arpeggios and intervals and you'll get there". Sounds familiar?

Well, I didn't get there. At speed it sounded like arpeggios and scales up and down (including sequences), not music. What I practiced came out.

Many years later I'm now starting to build a vocabulary of licks to internalize and draw from. I started a thread here a few days ago, you can check it out. I obviously encourage you to do the same, but it's just my opinion.

Like others on this thread, I'll tell you that your teacher is wrong, like mine was.


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[Binyomin]

TBH, two big schools of jazz improvisation - the Tristano school and Barry Harris's school both make uses of scalar sequences, not to mention thousands of other players who use similar things.

Is there a good book on the Tristano approach?

[gggomez]

My beginner improvisation has taken a gigantic leap applying a David Hamburger tip.

On a blues resolve on the one of each of numbered bar. Then sit out.

Start off real simple maybe two notes. Then build, start and finish earlier, change the rhythm, repeat it just works.

Instantly my playing had flow, motion, increased melody and much more rhythmic.

Instant Stanley Turpentine/Lou Donaldson. No more meaningless meandering. Strong harmonic melodic and rhythmic statements.

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[gggomez]

Resolve on the odd numbered bar that is

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[grahambop]

Is there a good book on the Tristano approach?

John Klopotowski's 'A Jazz Life - Warne Marsh' has detailed accounts of Warne's teaching exercises, which came straight from Lennie Tristano.

[destinytot]

Anecdotes and audio clips: A Jazz Life - a preview of the complete book by John Klopotowski | Jazz Guitar | Warne Marsh

[christianm77]

That's the one I used.

[Peppe]

Believe me it's extremely important. Just start studying intervals from thirds to sevenths on the 6 positions of the major scale... Improvise with them on II V I and then do it on modal stuff. Study modes to apply on each chord of the progressions, both technically and for improvisation.

[Peppe]

Just remember that if you don't listen to jazz you won't be able to apply those things in a nice way.. You'll sound like you're just playing notes on progressions. Another great way to learn how to use these concepts is playing licks from important jazz musicians...

[emanresu]

Well, I didn't get there. At speed it sounded like arpeggios and scales up and down (including sequences), not music. What I practiced came out.

Many years later I'm now starting to build a vocabulary of licks to internalize and draw from. I started a thread here a few days ago, you can check it out. I obviously encourage you to do the same, but it's just my opinion.

That was exactly what happened to me. Then saw that its possible to play entirely by the ear while not giving gosh darn what scale/arp/position am I using at the moment. Can improvise with eyes closed only minding what is going on musically. The arps slip in, the scales also. I used some apps to get the skill, it took almost a year to get comfy enough to react instantly to the key changes. Now I'm aiming to have a "meaning" to the solo.. to have a point, not just right notes. Not there yet but it looks promising and possible that way. I wouldn't have replied at all btw - still cant do it always but am getting closer.. a year ago I could only play "right notes" for most of the tunes. Now sometimes good things happen.

I worked with licks too but more so for the popish,rockish solos. It's a good way to do it and it was actually what I meant by learn scales/arps/sequences in a fun, groovy and creative way. Because they are just that.. just used creatively - with making an actual sense... that elusive "point"

But yeah, I'm not quite there yet(um.. playing always awesome solos) myself and it's a hobby. No authority here whatsoever

[christianm77]

The scale pattern stuff I do is the prep for making actual music. I do 15m a day of this stuff nice and slow. Good way to kick off.

[bako]

It can be fun to extract phrases from actual music that you like and make patterns and sequences out of them
(Hanonize them as AlsoRan said). Because it was drawn from an animated musical situation, it provides a starter sonic image to aim for which can help to steer clear of the mechanical robotized effect.

For me, practicing patterns is about raising the bar on the kinds of movements and sounds
that my hands and ears feel at home with and less so about wanting to execute said pattern
in the midst of an improvisation.

[Jonzo]

Sequences are arbitrary patterns. Because they are "mathematical", we tend to think they are "fundamental". But they are just a pattern like any other. Maybe what your teacher is suggesting is that if you want to practice 6th intervals, invent good phrases that incorporate 6ths and play those phrases starting from each tone of a scale. In other words, "always be musical". I know one pro who does this.

I suppose that sequences are fundamental in that they create a pattern based on a simple concept. So they are easy to "just do" without any thought. Some teachers put creativity at the top of their priorities and do not want you to ever play without thought.

I don't have an opinion about whether this is right or wrong. As I have watched my kids' playing evolve as they have changed teachers, it has become apparent that changing your priorities and practice approach is a good thing. So if you never do sequences, you will probably benefit at some point from doing sequences. If you have been practicing sequences, you will eventually benefit from inventing your own phrases to sequence. At some point it is also good to practice patterns based on what you exclude, such as patterns that are limited to non adjacent strings, or patterns that are limited to certain frets. What you are trying to do is become fluent with all of the notes in the "note group" you are practicing.

Right now I am listening to my son practicing sequences given by his current teacher, trumpeter Gilbert Castellanos, on his violin. This is something he hasn't really done with any seriousness before. He is a good improviser, but he feels this is the right exercise at the right time to improve tone and open up some new territory.

I've also noticed that the more difficult tone production is on an instrument, the more those players value sequences. I think it is because you are only focused on getting that interval to sound beautiful. Some professional horn players I know say that if they only have time to practice one thing, they do sequences.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I'm never going to agree with some people's notions of the real meaning of things like " the greats didn't play scales or arpeggios as part of their solos" etc.

But putting all of that aside...., I don't think you can disregard the fact that enclosures and other melodic targeting devices are very, very heavily used in MOST good jazz solos. And that's what sequences really ARE. They're basically just "scales" for these patterns. If you play any scale in thirds, you're creating an enclosure for the next note in sequence. And 1-2-3-1, 1-3-2-1, 3-2-1-3, 3-1-2-3's, and hundreds of other patterns like,1-2-3-5 are littered throughout great solos. The fact that they aren't played sequentially, in straight one or two-octave runs, is beside the point.

The real problem is not the device , but in the application of it. The fact that many can't hear how to actually apply these to chord tones, on strong beats, or use them to actually target specific pitches, is again, beside the point.

I've heard countless people say that they learned things like scales or arpeggios, or even transcribed others solos , all for apparently no benefit to their playing. That doesn't mean , necessarily, that the exercise itself is the problem.

[princeplanet]

.....What you are trying to do is become fluent with all of the notes in the "note group" you are practicing.

Not just one note group! I try to employ sequencing across chords. So if I play an 8 note group with a certain rhythmic figure against one chord, I try to imitate it a step above or below into the next chord, with the corrected notes to fit that chord/key. Sometimes I move a pattern up through string sets. I'm not thinking scales though, I'm thinking 4 or 5 note arps with chromatic connecting notes. It takes a lot of practice, a hell of of a lot of trial and error, but eventually the rewards come.

This approach is not for everyone, you really have to want that kind of skill. If your fave players do it, it's all the incentive you need. I love Sonny Rollins, so....

[princeplanet]

BTW, I think by using the term "sequencing", some of us may be talking about different things. Like, 1,3,2,4,3,5,4,6 etc is a sequence, I suppose of 2 notes. But some sequences can be one or 2 bars long (even longer). Are there terms we could use to distinguish these? I'm not sure "pattern" is any better...