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Originally Posted by christianm77
Sure is. And as others have mentioned, eventually the sounds you make while practicing become ingrained...and that's when you can hear them on the fly.
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11-04-2016 11:36 AM
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To my mind, what I am looking for is melodic lines that sound nice in conjunction with chords and chord changes of progressions. When practicing, I will run through a progression a few times listening for ideas and then go chord by chord (including passing chords) looking for these lines.
My perspective is not chord tones, scales, or any particular structures; although the lines I discover and develop do express some of those things. I focus strictly on the sound of the notes in the line as it relates to various chords and chord changes with attention to the rhythmic placement of certain notes within a phrase. I listen for melodic-harmonic relationships that I recognize as the "jazz sound" (mostly standards swing to bop). I try to ensure that every practice session results in finding some new lines and their relationships to progression movements.
What happens is that a connection develops between my ear (what I hear and what I want to hear) and my fingers (what I'm playing and what the possibilities are)... my fingers "learn" how to play what I want to hear. Some people might call this muscle memory, but it actually feels like more than that, more actively musically intuitive, so I think of it as "muscle melody". Basically, I'm teaching my hands how to sing.
What it feels like is that at any one time my fingers are begging strongly to go in the direction of what my ear is wanting to hear within the context of a song, and the "level of effort" of playing feels more of a release of permission for them to do so. The driver is what I want to hear, I lead with my ear; so I try to listen to jazz that sounds like the way I want to sound (Wes, Kenny, lately old Miles).
ed.) ...and I see mr. beaumont pretty much just wrote the same thing as I typed...
Last edited by pauln; 11-04-2016 at 11:46 AM.
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Sequences are good to work at, but you have to keep pushing forward with them. Don't fall into a rut of practicing mindlessly.
So you can start with intervals from 2nds up to 7ths in a major scale. Once that's comfortable, move on to compound intervals (9ths up through double octaves).
Then you can practice different three and four note sequences, some of which will be more useful than others.
Different sequences can force you to find new fingerings. Four note pentatonic sequences usually require some stretches in order to play up to speed -- you can get some nice McLaughlin sounding lines. Six note scale sequences using three-note-per-string shapes are staples of fusion and shred playing.
Keith Jarrett is especially good at moving different patterns and sequences and threading them through any kind of harmony, he's mentioned how his Bach studies really helped with that.
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I've been practicing, as a specific exercise, lines two two notes using wide intervals predicated on major or minor, the most fundamental tonality in, ahem, tonal music (mainly 10ths and 13ths) and trying to seamlessly integrate them with 4 note "Barry Harris" chromatic sequences (that are predicated on diatonic major or minor in the major scale). Thus, wide and chromatic in one kit and kaboodle.
If I wasn't working 12 hour days, 7 days a week, from now until just before X mas, I'd post a video.
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By the way, the 4 note chromatic sequences (Barry Harris) are
Major (I, IV, V). Using C Major as example C-D-Eb-E (Asc). E-D-Db-C. ( Desc)
Minor (ii, iiii, vi, vii) 4 consecutive semitones Asc. Or Desc (e.g., D, Eb-E-F)
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When the chord or key changes, you could redo the same thing(line,rhythm) with the changed note(s) in it. Its not a sequence.. dunno if it even has a word? But it sure will show them all that you are on top of the tune
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NSJ,
Is this similar to how Barry Harris organizes this kind of thing?
CDEbE --- DEbEF --- EFF#G --- FGAbA --- GABbB --- ABbBC --- BCC#D --- CDEbE
CDEbE --- EFF#G --- GABbB --- BCC#D
DEbEF --- FGAbA --- ABbBC --- CDEbE
EFF#G --- GABbB --- BCC#D --- DEbEF
FGAbA --- ABbBC --- CDEbE --- EFF#G
GABbB --- BCC#D --- DEbEF --- FGAbA
ABbBC --- CDEbE --- EFF#G --- GABbB
BCC#D --- DEbEF --- FGAbA --- ABbBC
A similar approach can be crafted to chromatically outline the harmony of all the other scales.
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Yes, that's exactly how C major would work in the 4 note BH sequence--note that descending, the 4 note sequences for the scale degrees associated with MINOR chords (ii, iii, vi, vii) would be exactly the same as ASC (i.e, ascend by semi-tones, descend by semi-tones). Originally Posted by bako
The scale degrees associated with MAJOR chords (I, IV, V) would be different ASC from DESC.
ASC: C-D-Eb-E (as you have written it)
DESC: E-D-Db-C
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Can you do favour and repost these things in the Barry Harris thread? Seems relevant.
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I'm new here, but not new to improv. Here's my 2 cents or so.
There isn't one way to do it.
There are great players who learned by copying solos and learning tunes from recordings and on the bandstand. It's still a good way to learn, if you have big enough ears. It was one thing to play the same couple of hundred classic ii V based standards. It's another to play unfamiliar tunes with more modern (read: difficult) harmony. If you find your way through Wayne Shorter or Toninho Horta tunes by ear, great!
Here's a simple test. Pick a random fret and a random finger. Now play Happy Birthday starting there without making a mistake. If you can't do that, it seems to me you want to be working on simply being able to play a melodic line that you make up in your mind. Seems to me that you have to be able to do that, but I don't see it discussed much.
I play in situations where somebody puts a tune they just wrote on my stand and I'm may be the first soloist. Not a whole lot of time to get the harmony by ear and I often can't do it. So, like a lot of people, I look at chord symbols and use some theory.
And, this is where it gets trickier, I think. There is an enormous amount of theoretical material available. More than a lifetime's worth, it seems to me. So, you have to pick what you're going to work on, and then you have to figure out how you're going to get it under your fingers, on the fly, so that it sounds like music.
This is a huge subject and I can't really get my mind around it. But, I'll start with something simple. Suppose you want to learn all 12 major scales and how to use them over standards. Most people, as I understand it, use the CAGED system to learn where the notes are. I'm not sure how they practice the patterns. Aebersold, iirc, recommended an approach to avoid the situation where you know the patterns, but only if you start them at the top or bottom. You
have to be able to switch from where you left off on the previous chord-scale to a nearby note in the new scale. How do you practice CAGED to acquire that skill? I don't know, because I chose, years ago, not to use CAGED. I have no real idea of whether this was a good choice. (I just memorized the fingerboard and memorized the notes in each scale I use, without thinking about patterns).
However you solve that problem, you may have the issue that other posters discussed, which is that your playing might sound mechanical. One solution is learning licks. I's a good one. Eventually, you'll know a lot of them and be able to cut and paste them together.
On and on. I don't know where to begin or end with it.
A lot of it depends on what you're trying to do. I play in situations with a lot of reading and soloing over new material. I don't see how I could do it without scale theory. I know that other players can, but it's a high skill level to do that. For tunes that I know really well, I don't have to think about theory. I can "feel" the changes and find the notes. To get to that point I practiced a lot of scale patterns (before I gave up on them). I learned the notes, but I still play diatonic patterns too often. It's hard to get it out of my playing. Now what I do is practice along with IRealPro. I pick a tune, set it for 13 repeats. All 12 keys around the cycle and then the original key one last time. I pick the sounds I want to use and have at it. Hours. The idea is to improve fluency.
And, all that said, if your time isn't good, none of the above will sound good. It's essential to remember that it's possible to make a simple line sound great with great time, but nothing will sound good with bad time. If you made it this far, thanks for reading!Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 11-10-2016 at 11:21 PM.
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At some point each improvisor has to learn how everything fits together to make MUSIC. Whatever it takes to make that happen is what to work on.
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Less is more.
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To return to the original post -- how do you develop more interesting ideas?
First, you play the chords and sing an improvised melody. Keep doing it until you find one you like. Then get it down on the guitar. Repeat.
Inevitably, there comes a point where you can play your own ideas and you feel like they aren't good enough.
Here are a few things that can work, but everybody is different.
1. Get some recordings of the same tune or changes and find a solo you like. Learn to play it with the exact same rhythm and feel as the recording.
2. Reharmonize the tune and then solo over your new changes while playing over the old changes. So, say if you have a couple of bars of Cmaj7 and you decide to reharm them as Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7, you play on those four chords even though the rhythm section is just playing Cmaj. I hear this all the time on recordings. I think it's even the key to playing outside -- they're thinking simple changes, but not the ones you're hearing.
3. There are ways to use theory to find new sounds. For example, the chord is D7. You play a D7 arp, an Ab7 (tritone sub) arp and then another D7. Well, maybe this is just another way to think of reharm. But, some people might think of it as ways to apply hexatonics or something like that (over my head, but I know that some people do this).
4. Another point might be to go back to the stuff you're playing that you're tired of. Some players sound great using "inside" sounds exclusively. Invariably, they have great time feel and a gift for melody. Maybe you should be one of them. Paul Desmond comes to mind as one of my favorite players, and one who didn't play particularly fast and didn't play much outside the changes. But, a great tone, great time and great melodic gifts. Stan Getz is another. He made simple bossa nova changes sound amazing. Moderate tempos, rarely doubled timed and not usually outside the changes. But could he cross a bar line!
5. An outside the box suggestion is to forget about chords and lines and go back to simply getting a great guitar sound. My experience is that my soloing improved dramatically (at least in my mind) when I found a patch that gave the guitar sound more body and more sustain. It felt like I was finally playing an instrument that allowed me to create a sound closer to what was in my mind.
Again, I'm new here and don't want to be overbearing with any of this -- it's just that I struggle with the same issues.
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There are endless patterns and combinations for practicing sequences. Now the question - does it mean that your improvisation has endless potential of getting better when practicing them all the time?
Recently I practiced my most used patterns just by learning countless random melodies from memory. Just glued them on the scale pattern(s). Something unusual happened afterwards when improvising
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In the words of Yngwie the great 'how can less be more? More is more!' Originally Posted by Drumbler
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Well, he gets paid by the note, so he would say that.... Originally Posted by christianm77
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