T/D in Maj vs D/D in Min

**princeplanet** · 10-21-2016, 07:18 AM

Tonic/Dominant, for the uninitiated, is the way of reducing harmony to being either Dominant or Tonic classes. So, in C maj, if you embellished the following downbeats (with either diatonic or chromatic notes)- b d f a -, then you'll sound fine against iim7, V7, viim7b5 (and maybe IVmaj7) .... and if you embellish- c e g a - you're good for the other chords. Nothing new, the greats were doing it decades ago. If you go for Schenkerian analysis, you can reduce most functional western music over the centuries to T/D. Tensional flux, the tritone in D is resolved in T, over and over again, in one key, or several....

That's all fine for major keys, but in Jazz, the Tonic minor of choice has long been the m6, which contains a tritone! Basically an inversion of m7b5. So even with iim7b5 - V7b9 - im6, there is no resolution to a chord with no tritone. Basically D/D. Now, some of you are thinking that it's wrong to think of a m6 as a Dom functioning chord - that it should be treated as a chord of "rest".... but if you play any Dom material you have that fits the m7b5/m6 sound, the contexts itself makes the line sound more "at rest" then when against Dom type chords.

Just an observation, and wondering if you guys even think this way in minor keys? I'm digging minor keys a lot these days, and realising there are precious few tunes in minor keys! Might have to write my own

....

**pingu** · 10-21-2016, 09:54 AM

In minor tunes , I do usually feel a Dom minor Tonic function going on .....
eg Black Orpheus
Bar 1 tonic (home)
Bar 2 Dom (away) etc

Have you got irealpro ?
You can set that running and blow
over it for ages ... really good

**Boston Joe** · 10-21-2016, 09:58 AM

I don't think we always need to regard the tritone as a functional thing. Even in major keys, if you go for a Maj7#11 you get a tritone. (Personally I'm not crazy about the #11 on a tonic chord, but plenty of people use it.)

**rintincop** · 10-21-2016, 03:52 PM

Good point, we don't always need to regard the tritone as a "functional" thing.

**Boston Joe** · 10-21-2016, 04:19 PM

In particular, it seems to me that the tritone is functional mainly when it occurs between the 3rd and 7th. Not so much when it occurs between the root and #11/b5th. I hear the II chord in a minor cadence as an "altered" minor seventh chord, not a half diminished chord. In the case of the m6 chord it seems that the minor quality of the chord somewhat obscures the functionality of the tritone. (I'm just spitballing here. I could be wrong. I'm sure others have thought more deeply on this than I have.)

**bako** · 10-21-2016, 05:15 PM

I think function at times is defined by usage as well as interval content.

In addition to your example of a tonic m6 or Joe's tonic Ma7#11, there is also the blues thing
where the key center itself is based on a dominant I chord.

**Boston Joe** · 10-21-2016, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by bako

I think function at times is defined by usage as well as interval content.

In addition to your example of a tonic m6 or Joe's tonic Ma7#11, there is also the blues thing
where the key center itself is based on a dominant I chord.

Yeah I was thinking about that, too.

**jordanklemons** · 10-21-2016, 06:30 PM

If you're trying to tonicize the minor sound and having a hard time with the min6 tonality, you should give a shot at the min(add2) tonality instead... or even just a basic minor triad. Both give really strong, stable statements of minor. And the add2 has a really beautiful, modern quality to it. They're both harmonies that I lean on a lot when treating a minor chord as the tonic and looking to get strong resolution points.

I might even try just using the minor triad with the added 2 as a starting point for making melodies over it. No 6 or b7. Maybe add the 4 next to get a pentatonic type scale (think Mr. PC). Can always add 6 and b7 in also... but it's a good way to avoid the dominant and tension type issues you're talking about and go straight for the strong, powerful minor tonic with real clarity.

**princeplanet** · 10-21-2016, 11:05 PM

Well, actually, my ear has really come around to not only accept the m6 as a tonic minor, but to even like or prefer it! I just worry that my lines might sound unresolved to people who are not accustomed to it. But as has been pointed out, In Blues, you can have a Dominant chord at rest, so......

**christianm77** · 10-22-2016, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Well, actually, my ear has really come around to not only accept the m6 as a tonic minor, but to even like or prefer it! I just worry that my lines might sound unresolved to people who are not accustomed to it. But as has been pointed out, In Blues, you can have a Dominant chord at rest, so......

b6 as resolved? Do you hear the same thing with 4 in major?

I would say that a b6 against a tonic minor chord has a quality of motion about it. Would use it freely with that in mind.

Minor + b6 sounds like first inversion major to me.

Mind you it is the sound of the Matrix score.

**christianm77** · 10-22-2016, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

If you're trying to tonicize the minor sound and having a hard time with the min6 tonality, you should give a shot at the min(add2) tonality instead... or even just a basic minor triad. Both give really strong, stable statements of minor. And the add2 has a really beautiful, modern quality to it. They're both harmonies that I lean on a lot when treating a minor chord as the tonic and looking to get strong resolution points.

I might even try just using the minor triad with the added 2 as a starting point for making melodies over it. No 6 or b7. Maybe add the 4 next to get a pentatonic type scale (think Mr. PC). Can always add 6 and b7 in also... but it's a good way to avoid the dominant and tension type issues you're talking about and go straight for the strong, powerful minor tonic with real clarity.

Barry Harris forbids the m add 2, so I get a slight feeling of guilt every time I play it.

But yes, I like the sound of a minor triad. People think they have to add things to a minor triad to make it interesting, but the thing is it's already a cool chord.

**christianm77** · 10-22-2016, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Tonic/Dominant, for the uninitiated, is the way of reducing harmony to being either Dominant or Tonic classes. So, in C maj, if you embellished the following downbeats (with either diatonic or chromatic notes)- b d f a -, then you'll sound fine against iim7, V7, viim7b5 (and maybe IVmaj7) .... and if you embellish- c e g a - you're good for the other chords. Nothing new, the greats were doing it decades ago. If you go for Schenkerian analysis, you can reduce most functional western music over the centuries to T/D. Tensional flux, the tritone in D is resolved in T, over and over again, in one key, or several....

That's all fine for major keys, but in Jazz, the Tonic minor of choice has long been the m6, which contains a tritone! Basically an inversion of m7b5. So even with iim7b5 - V7b9 - im6, there is no resolution to a chord with no tritone. Basically D/D. Now, some of you are thinking that it's wrong to think of a m6 as a Dom functioning chord - that it should be treated as a chord of "rest".... but if you play any Dom material you have that fits the m7b5/m6 sound, the contexts itself makes the line sound more "at rest" then when against Dom type chords.

Just an observation, and wondering if you guys even think this way in minor keys? I'm digging minor keys a lot these days, and realising there are precious few tunes in minor keys! Might have to write my own

....

Yes absolutely

I tend to go for the dominant on minor sound for bop and later stuff - so I might play Dm7b5 G7 Cm as Bb dominant (B) F dominant. It gives the I that Dorian sound.

It just came out naturally and I thought, well I like that sound and it's another place I can use all my dominant language.

For swing I like more straight up minor sounds.

**christianm77** · 10-22-2016, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Well, actually, my ear has really come around to not only accept the m6 as a tonic minor, but to even like or prefer it! I just worry that my lines might sound unresolved to people who are not accustomed to it. But as has been pointed out, In Blues, you can have a Dominant chord at rest, so......

The Matrix chord: minor + b6:...

**jordanklemons** · 10-22-2016, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Barry Harris forbids the m add 2, so I get a slight feeling of guilt every time I play it.

Does he really? Why's that? Does he offer a reason... or just straight up forbids it?

**christianm77** · 10-22-2016, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

Does he really? Why's that? Does he offer a reason... or just straight up forbids it?

'Oh no, we don't do that in our school.'

**princeplanet** · 10-22-2016, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

b6 as resolved? Do you hear the same thing with 4 in major?

I would say that a b6 against a tonic minor chord has a quality of motion about it. Would use it freely with that in mind.

Minor + b6 sounds like first inversion major to me.

Mind you it is the sound of the Matrix score.

I'm talking about the m6 chord, i.e. the minor triad with the maj 6th added. Not the b6th!!!