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Hey guys,
I'm back-- I took a long break from playing music.
I'm back to practicing the same old Barry Harris stuff; it has never let me down.
I've been trying to teach my 2.5 year old about the two black keys and three black keys when we're playing around with the piano, and I started to think, "maybe I should try to learn some basic piano myself."
I thought what would Barry Harris say to start with, and I remembered "oh yeah, the chromatic scale..the universe"
so I went on youtube and learned a fingering for the chromatic scale and learned it solidly in both hands and can play it hands together in either direction and contrary motion.
Then I thought "I guess whole tone scales are next." so I got fingerings for both whole tone scales and I have been practicing them here and there throughout the week whenever I pass a piano. I'm working on contrary motion while "filling in the middle" for the whole tone scale right now.
As I'm getting pretty comfortable with them, it is really interesting to see the piano clearly divide itself into 2 parts (B whole tone scale or C whole tone scale)
It has been a fun little exercise seeing how his break down (chromatic-> whole tone-> diminished-> dominant etc) is literally a way to visualize the keyboard, not just a cool little theory thought experiment.
So once I'm a little more satisfied with my whole tone scales and harmony, I'll break it into three diminished sections and work from there etc.
Anyway, just a fun little side project that I wanted to share
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07-18-2017 06:03 PM
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Joe, that's truly inspiring. Nice to see you back.
Alan
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Beato's done a vid:
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Originally Posted by humphreysguitar
Bar 24: on the C7b9, what scale exactly are you outlining here? the Db's are the b9s but why did you throw in Ab in that scale?
This gives a very common scale in fact, but I'll let you work that out. Hint - think Spanish.
Diminished scale sounds a bit awkward for leading tone dim7 chords/V7b9s... Rarely used in bebop if at all in this context.
Bar 29-31: more a song chart question that a specifically barry question. The realbook 5th ed says
Dbmaj7 -> Dbm7 -> Cm7 -> Bdim7
I know Barry talks about the Cm7 in All the Things You Are. I cross checked with some other versions of ATTYA on my hard drive and I see quite a few have that Gb7 that you put.
I prefer Ab/C conceptually, but Cm7 works.
Gb7 is fine. I use it because it relates to the Gb7 scale obviously. Dm7 relates to the Gb7 scale.
Dm6 or Dm(maj7) might be a nicer choice for harmony, but blowing wise different scales.
The Realbook 5th edition is in general a repository of 70's weed-addled lava lamp nonsense chords.
Another chart has Ab/Eb with bar 32 being Abdim7/Eb
Charts in general are a simplification. BH isn't thinking chord symbols - he's thinking movement. The chords given are simply a simplified layout for blowing.
I have a transcription with Art Tatum, and he uses this: bar 30 (G7alt), bar 31 (Cmaj7), bar 32 (E to Am), Bar 33 (Cm7), and i thought it was one instance but he seemed to use those changes throughout the piece.
a point of curiosity:
@18:16 = "[George Duvivier to Barry Harris] man i'm so glad you played that Am7b5 there instead of Am7" and Barry demonstrates it on Bar 17, which i must admit, i've seen all the charts say Am7 at, is he referring to the right spot?
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So this is the most efficient way I have seen to navigate through the “brothers and sisters”— all four of them.
R23b3
or
R234b5
the b3 or b5 represent the root of a fellow sibling.
For example: D7-F7-Ab7-B7
DEF#F gets to from D7 to F7
DEF#GAb get you from D7 to Ab7
FGAAb Gets you from F7 to A flat seven
FGABbB Gets you from F7 to be B7.
AbBbCB Gets you from Ab7 seven to B7
AbBbCDbD gets you from Ab7 to D7
BC#D#D gets you from B7to D7
BC#D#EF Gets new from B7 to F7
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Perhaps the most important Notes from the Barry Harris videos—He seems to agree with Dizzie Gillespie-“forget about the notes. “. Imagine that. ????
1. Learn to play on the ands, especially the and of four, which teaches you how to do away with measures.
2. Verbalize phrases using syllables especially 2 Bar phrases. then 4 bars. Then 8 bars.
3. Rhythm comes first. Forget about notes, think of a syllabic rhythm, verbalize it and then try and get whatever you can by ear. Play some notes that go with the rhythm.
4. Practice the crap about “hambone”- 4 measure Q and A phrase in which the first two measures are a “call” and the last two serve as a “response”.
i mean, what more can be so essential and also essentially overlooked ?
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Amazing thread. My favorite one in the forum.
I have said in the past that I feel Harris' concepts haven't been properly explained (except for Kingstone´s book) but this thread enlightens that obscurity.
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Has anybody noticed that Barry Harris when he talks about his half step rules, never explains their purpose as aligning chord tones with the down beats. Along with the BH videos, I also have the Roni Ben-Hur book and Alan's book (though this one only briefly touches on scales), none of them give this explanation. Especially Roni' Ben-Hur book which devotes large section to the half-note practice doesn't mention this explanation even though he has a paragraph discussing the purpose of Barry Harris half notes.
Every other resource I've seen on bebop scales without an exception explains the purpose chromatic half steps as this simple and elegant "chord tone alignment" effect.
I am wondering if the omission of this explanation by Barry Harris school is not a coincidence, may be Barry Harris has a broader point for these half step rules than just aligning chord tones. If so, what is it?
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Yes i did. Interesting isn't it?
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I like when I'm building a line with the rules and have a stretch that is "backward" (chord tones on up beats) and then set it right at the end with a triplet or chromatic tone. It sounds cool.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Any resources where Barry (or an acolyte) talks about dom7 lines resolving to I?
The half-step rules mean that a dom7th line will hit chord tones on a strong beat. This works for certain chord tones, but not others. I've worked out some solutions of my own, but wondered if there was a place where he explicitly talks about this.
Take F7 - Bbmaj (one measure each)
F down to F works fine. You land on the 5th of Bb
A down to A works fine. You land on the 7th of Bb
C down to C... either you add a half step between C and Bb, and switch over to Bbmajor OR (and this sounds more boppish to me), hit the Eb on the 4th beat, D# on the and of four, and D on the 1 -- a little enclosure.
Eb down to Eb -- skip the half notes all together and just resolve to D.
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It's covered in the first chapter of the Barry Harris workshop videos:
The Barry Harris Workshop Video – Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops
Roni Ben-Hur covers the same topic in his book, Talk Guitar:
Roni Ben-Hur - Talk Jazz: Guitar
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Where exactly? I think I missed that bit...
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Yeah, I didn't see anything in Roni Ben-Hur's book about it, please point it out if there's something I'm missing.
The other very sensible possibility, and one that probably is close to what a lot of bop players were actually thinking, is to think dom7 up to a certain point, then just resolve it to the I 'by any means necessary.'
The 3rd beat seems like an ideal place to make the switch, but of course, Bird and the rest were masters of anticipation and delayed resolutions.
So on a 1 measure V-I resolving to Bb, the Fdom7 notes would be in bold. After that, you begin to resolve to Bb:
| C Bb A G F Eb C C# | D ...
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I think you can use the 5-4-3-2 phrases?
I tend be intuitive. I think if you find ways to resolve into chord tones of the next chord using surrounds etc
But I’d be interested to know of more material regarding this.
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Originally Posted by dasein
If you have found anywhere where Barry Harris says that the point of half step rules is aligning chord tones with strong beats, please share because I myself haven't been able to.
I mean may be he means this but likes to leave certain things a mystery for the theatric affect but at this point, this conclusion would be a bit of a stretch. (despite the theatrical charm of his delivery in his workshop videos .
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I should probably just drag myself down there and ask him myself.
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Originally Posted by dasein
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
The way I see it now, it's more that the added half steps mean a scale will 'work itself out' (Barry says 'come out right'... Every note in the scale is not necessarily that important, but knowing where you will end up on what beat or off beat is very useful.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
The schedule claims the Improv section starts at 10:00PM, but I have never seen it start anywhere close to 10:00. More like 11:00 most nights, so that means I'm getting home close to 2:00AM.
But if I'm not getting any younger, then neither is Mr. Harris, so better to ask him questions while we still can.
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Originally Posted by dasein
We run our descending scale with as many extra half steps as we want and (for instance) when we reach beat 3 before the one chord, run a Related Diminished of the Dominant. There are dozens of variations just on the diminished on the last two beats. You will notice upon playing a Related Diminished you will be close to the 5th or 3rd or tonic of the Major.
Then Christian's suggestion of 5432 Phrases is a great one!
I wish I could stay awake until 2am.
To see some variations on the Related Diminished resolving to One see post #78 of this thread.Last edited by A. Kingstone; 05-15-2018 at 08:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I've found the parental chromatic major (mentioned in the second part of the BH Workshops) to be equally effective as it ensures that scale rather than simply chord tones line up rhythmically. For instance, a descending C chromatic major line in even eighth notes, D-Db-C-(D)-B-Bb-A-Ab-G-Gb-F-(G)-E-Eb-D could be played over two bars of the dominant (G7), a ii-V (one bar each of D-7 and G7), a turnaround (E-7 A7 | D-7 G7) or a short ii-V-I (D-7 G7 | Cmaj7 C6).
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Based on your explanation above I am understanding that half steps are more about targeting a note and getting that target note on the down beat rather than what happens along the way. Is that correct?Last edited by Tal_175; 05-15-2018 at 09:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
I don't know for sure. I always trusted his words and demonstration without further explanation.
All the strong beat weak beat ideas seems to work themselves out while following Barry's 'Extra Note Rules'. Maybe that's just his way of saying the same thing. He used to call it the 'Half Step Rules' but Barry amended them because " The Rule Is More Important Than The Scale".
This subtlety is explained in Rees' Workshop Video #2.
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