Official Barry Harris Thread

[pamosmusic]

I’ve been known to hit that Bb over the F chord. I wouldn’t consider it a key change since it’s just F major over an F major chord, which is diatonic to C.

I dunno, I’m also ignorant to all the jazz rules and vocabulary.

I believe we’re talking about the distinction between using the B and Bb. Bb would sort of imply a modulation, but also you’re not missing the point here. It’s a very closely related key and Bbs are common over Fmajs that are definitely not outside C major, and #4s are quite common over tonic chords. So it’s six of one, a half dozen of the other an a lot of ways, and mostly we’re talking about a mental/aural orientation that makes a practical difference on the margins.

I am firmly in the camp of You Do You on this one.

[Christian Miller]

I believe we’re talking about the distinction between using the B and Bb. Bb would sort of imply a modulation, but also you’re not missing the point here. It’s a very closely related key and Bbs are common over Fmajs that are definitely not outside C major, and #4s are quite common over tonic chords. So it’s six of one, a half dozen of the other an a lot of ways, and mostly we’re talking about a mental/aural orientation that makes a practical difference on the margins.

I am firmly in the camp of You Do You on this one.

100%

It’s been baked into the very sense of key for ever - the idea of key being a scale being quite a modern idea really - very modern. What we think of as tonal music really saw those sort of mild chromaticisms (Bb and F#) as part of the key rather than modulations per se. And of course it shows up in jazz. Later theory bangs on about secondary dominant chords and so on, but really it comes out of the melody, and the standard basses people would write. Tonicising the II in something called ‘a Fonte’ was very typical. This is preserved in jazz language. If you’ve noticed bebop turnarounds in Bach, this is why.

The middle 8s of Alone Together or Night in Tunisia are classical fontes. Tonicise IIm, tonicise I in modern terms

Barry was ALL about this stuff. Classical music was very important to him.

Modern guitar players I think have very limited exposure to trad western tonality generally compared to pianists. It can be a bit confusing if you are used to the tonality of pop/rock music.

I know it was true for me - I don’t feel I grew up with it. My early background was more in modal and rock/pop based music. The Beatles, Zeppelin, and so on (boomer parents) rather than Mozart or GASB. Vamps, V7sus chords, bVII7s ….

Trane made sense to me right away, Bird less so.

Took me years!


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[Christian Miller]

I mean if I had to pinpoint birds harmonic style apart from say Prez, I’d say it was in that tonicisation of the ii chord. With a VI7b9


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[Petimar]

I find his organization to be remarkably simple and Illuminating.

Me too!

[Navdeep_Singh]

Thomas Echols has a new video, giving samples from his new book on generating linear playing—i.e, lines using BH’s methods. I ordered the book. Probably best to read it before really grokking what’s in the video.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Interesting revelation from Thomas in the forward to the book:

”.The Monophonic side was a lot trickier. I practiced these techniques regularly (and with zeal) for about 7-8 years before they made any sense to me as a means for actually learning to improvise.It’s a bit embarrassing to admit this, but it’s true.”.

He is a trained classical guitarist.

[Christian Miller]

Interesting- it’s mostly the ‘monophonic’ stuff I found useful (Barry didn’t use this term, he called it ‘improvisation’ class)

I get why a Classically trained player would find it harder. Harmony is more familiar, polyphonic left hand technique makes Barry’s harmony stuff more accessible. Single note lines require a jazz sensibility and the ability execute fast swinging eights etc. Especially at the tempos Barry used to call these things in.

Again, get the DVDs and play through them lol. Then, pick up the tiny pieces of yourself off the floor …

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[joe2758]

I play with classical technique and don't play many lines except as fills. I use the various 6th dims scales (including subs) for lines, and I do wonder sometimes why there is such a disconnect between the two approaches("improv" vs "harmony"). I guess soloing that way has different requirements (I could just never get to bebop tempos, or even close), but I'm not sure what. Maybe easier to teach to monophonic instruments? I mean, there must be a reason he bases it off of a 7 note scale rather than the symmetrical scales he uses for harmony. The latter would have symmetry as a starting point, as where using dom 7 scale "adds a note" right off the bat. Anyway, with single note playing as my weakness, making lines with 6 dim scales was very beneficial. I say this after years of trying the direct way he teaches lines; it just didn't work for me.

[Navdeep_Singh]

I play with classical technique and don't play many lines except as fills. I use the various 6th dims scales (including subs) for lines, and I do wonder sometimes why there is such a disconnect between the two approaches("improv" vs "harmony"). I guess soloing that way has different requirements (I could just never get to bebop tempos, or even close), but I'm not sure what. Maybe easier to teach to monophonic instruments? I mean, there must be a reason he bases it off of a 7 note scale rather than the symmetrical scales he uses for harmony. The latter would have symmetry as a starting point, as where using dom 7 scale "adds a note" right off the bat. Anyway, with single note playing as my weakness, making lines with 6 dim scales was very beneficial. I say this after years of trying the direct way he teaches lines; it just didn't work for me.

I think the key to Barry’s stuff, either in terms of multiple voices or with lines, is it gives us infinite things to play, using little modular components and ideas, motifs, cells, that, once we internalize, allow us to play freely in all sorts of directions, so that we can get on with the REALLY important stuff: the idiomatic rhythmic feel and jazz phrasing. As Dizzy said, “I fill my barlines with rhythm and throw some notes at it”. Barry can help supply with the “some notes” part, not in a scripted way, but a fully internalized manner.

[Christian Miller]

I play with classical technique and don't play many lines except as fills. I use the various 6th dims scales (including subs) for lines, and I do wonder sometimes why there is such a disconnect between the two approaches("improv" vs "harmony"). I guess soloing that way has different requirements (I could just never get to bebop tempos, or even close), but I'm not sure what. Maybe easier to teach to monophonic instruments? I mean, there must be a reason he bases it off of a 7 note scale rather than the symmetrical scales he uses for harmony. The latter would have symmetry as a starting point, as where using dom 7 scale "adds a note" right off the bat. Anyway, with single note playing as my weakness, making lines with 6 dim scales was very beneficial. I say this after years of trying the direct way he teaches lines; it just didn't work for me.

It may or may not be relevant that according to Howard Rees, Barry didn’t start teaching the 8 note scales until the 1980s.

[A. Kingstone]

Howard Rees

[AllanAllen]

Sitting on the deck pondering jazz and a thought came to me.

Why do we need the Barry Harris scale at all? If every other note of a scale is a chord tone, (1, 3, 5, 7) they naturally fall on the strong beats. Is it just to get the 6th tone on a strong beat?

[Bop Head]

Sitting on the deck pondering jazz and a thought came to me.

Why do we need the Barry Harris scale at all? If every other note of a scale is a chord tone, (1, 3, 5, 7) they naturally fall on the strong beats. Is it just to get the 6th tone on a strong beat?

What do you mean by "the Barry Harris scale"? If you mean the scales with the added chromatic "extra notes", those were taught descending. Then you need those extra notes to make them "rhythmically correct".

EDIT: I should say: ... then you might need extra notes to make them "rhythmically correct", depending on where you start in the bar (beat or "and") and from which note you start. It is either no, two or three extra notes.

[pamosmusic]

Sitting on the deck pondering jazz and a thought came to me.

Why do we need the Barry Harris scale at all? If every other note of a scale is a chord tone, (1, 3, 5, 7) they naturally fall on the strong beats. Is it just to get the 6th tone on a strong beat?

Because the 7 and 8 throw it off.

Playing it for the second octave (or playing it starting anywhere but the root) and you end up switching to chord tones on the upbeats after the octave.

1 (2) 3 (4) 5 (6) 7 (1) 2 (3) 4 etc.

Same goes for major except that you want to use a 6 chord instead of a 7 chord and the major seven is already diatonic, so they put the passing note between 6 and 7. Same goes for the minor version.

Thats for the Barry Harris passing note scales. Very similar to the Dave Baker Bebop Scales. Difference being that BH doesn’t emphasize the chord tones on strong beats, so much as having the scale land on a chord tone. The chord tones on downbeats is incidental. With DB, it’s explicitly designed that way.

When you use the sixth diminished concept then you actually harmonize the passing note. So that’s a different thing. Thats the note that completes your passing diminished chord.

EDIT: also note that in his scale outlines, you do only play up to the seventh. And that’s so that you get kind of scale sound and chord sound in your ear in one shot, from what I understand.

[AllanAllen]

I was one note away from figuring it out. Haha.

Thanks

[Bop Head]

[...] Difference being that BH doesn’t emphasize the chord tones on strong beats, so much as having the scale land on a chord tone. The chord tones on downbeats is incidental. [...]

He does indeed. The expression I used ("rhythmically correct") comes from one of the ca. 50 videos from master classes at the Royal Conservatory at The Hague recorded by Frans Elsen, don't ask me which video exactly LOL.

BarryHarrisVideos - YouTube

[Bop Head]

[...] Thats for the Barry Harris passing note scales. [...]

A passing note in my understanding is a note located pitch-wise between two notes. Which happens with Dave Baker's one chromatic passing tone in his bebop scales. In Barry's teaching not the pitch is important but the function as a rhythmic placeholder is important, so the chord tones can come out rhythmically correct -- on strong beats.

[Bop Head]

Because the 7 and 8 throw it off. [...]

Applies only to the dominant scales (aka "mixolydian" to Berklee-oids). For major and minor (melodic minor ascending version for ascending and descending, sometimes called "jazz minor") the most important extra note is placed between fifths and sixth. Chris Parks even works out the extra notes for harmonic minor IIRC.

EDIT: I remembered correctly. W/o "asking the bot" LOL.

EDIT2: Nice Christmas tree. Now back to listening to Charles McPherson interviews.

[pamosmusic]

He does indeed. The expression I used ("rhythmically correct") comes from one of the ca. 50 videos from master classes at the Royal Conservatory at The Hague recorded by Frans Elsen, don't ask me which video exactly LOL.

BarryHarrisVideos - YouTube

He does talk about it for the scale outlines but that’s to get the sound in your ear. The rules themselves communicate the emphasis.

BH — if you start on, say, the 6 of a dominant chord, then you use no passing note. That gives you 6 (5) 4 (3) 2 (1) b7

or you could do the extra passing note between 2 and 1 to get you back there. But the chord tones on downbeats isn’t important so much as the landing on a chord tone at the end (coming out right).

DB — start on the 6 of the dominant chord, then insert a passing note inside the first available whole step. This means that chord tones will start landing on downbeats as soon as possible.

6 (b6) 5 (4) 3 (2) 1 (7) b7 etc

A passing note in my understanding is a note located pitch-wise between two notes. Which happens with Dave Baker's one chromatic passing tone in his bebop scales. In Barry's teaching not the pitch is important but the function as a rhythmic placeholder is important,

This is right.

so the chord tones can come out rhythmically correct -- on strong beats.

See above. When you follow the rules, this isn’t how it shakes out necessarily. It does a lot of the time, but it’s incidental to having the line come out on a chord tone.

Applies only to the dominant scales (aka "mixolydian" to Berklee-oids). For major and minor (melodic minor ascending version for ascending and descending, sometimes called "jazz minor") the most important extra note is placed between fifths and sixth.

Yes, you quoted half a sentence of my post and clipped out the part where I said exactly this, so thanks.

And the Barry Harris stuff is interesting I think, because the rules are subservient to the musical result. So I think it’s easy to read the rules or listen to them outlined and think we’re talking about the same thing as Dave Baker but it’s evident when you play through them that they’re different in small but very meaningful ways. The BH ones are looser which I think makes them easier to work with.

Anyway — Christian or Alan would be better equipped for this discussion, so I’m happy to be corrected or clarified on any of this. Interloper that I am

EDIT - The Barry Harris passing note rules allow space for adding other passing notes too, but that’s later stuff and most of the stuff from the early workshops emphasizes the basic 1/3 passing notes for chord tones, 0/2 for non.

[Tal_175]

Sitting on the deck pondering jazz and a thought came to me.

Why do we need the Barry Harris scale at all? If every other note of a scale is a chord tone, (1, 3, 5, 7) they naturally fall on the strong beats. Is it just to get the 6th tone on a strong beat?

I asked Barry Harris if putting the chord tones on down beats were really the point of the half note rules, he said chord tones also sound good on the up beats (paraphrasing).